07-04-2002 23:42									#1
	Suggestions for Firaxis, about Spies/Espionage Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I wish that...

1) We could get more than one spy into another nation's govt, including sleeper agents (agents who get into the nation and act normal until we need them. An example would be placing a guy who's mission is to get near their leader, and once they tell us they have, we can tell them to kill the leader.)
2) Our spies could try to turn citizens of the nation into informants. This would have a chance of the spy being caught, but would give the leader a permanent view from a particular city, particular military unit, etc, until the spy controlling the informant gets caught or the informant does. If the informant does, the spy may have to leave the nation or be arrested.
3) Assassinating the enemy leader to throw the govt into anarchy for several years.
4) If we get informants who're scientists, they could transmit technology.
5) Informants in a unit transmit visuals from their unit, and if it's a nuclear unit, with the aid of at least 5 other spies, the nuclear unit can be launched.
6) Informants in a city transmit visuals from the city, and allow free examination of said city.
7) Informants won't sabotage things, etc. They're not trained spies, etc. Your spies have to do that, but remember risking your spies risks losing their network of informants too.

It should still cost some money to get spies and get them into the nation, and some informants may need a steady pay (some informants could be motivated by other reasons and won't need to be paid).

	08-04-2002 00:24									#2
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i really miss the civil war effects of civ2... a really costly leader assination could spawn one

	08-04-2002 03:04									#3
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Did they fix the city list yet so that you can see all the cities when the AI has too many?

	08-04-2002 05:09									#4
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i really miss the civil war effects of civ2... a really costly leader assination could spawn one

Aye, that would be good

Let's see, though...

In a despotism, since it is a dictatorship, a civil war would always occur in the event of an assassination.

In monarchy, there would be a 50% or so chance to have civil war, and if there wasn't one, the IG explanation would be that there was a clear line of succession for the monarchy and no strong opponents to challenge it.

In republic and democracy, it can be assumed that the government will survive an assassination in all but 10% or 20% of the cases. And, the government can actually become stronger in the case of an assassination of their leader.

For instance, after Lincoln's assassination, his successor pushed for things that were a lot stronger than what Lincoln had planned for the South, and they went through.

After Kennedy's assassination, his successor rammed Kennedy's policies down down Congress' throat, and Congress went ahead. LBJ was eventually one of the most disliked presidents ever by the end of his time in office, but he did get Kennedy's policies through Congress - And it is in doubt whether those policies would ever have gone through had Kennedy survived. Congress probably would never have accepted them.

So, my point is, in a democracy or republic, there should be a 10% chance of revolt (20% for republic), but also a 70% chance that the country will rally, resulting in (1) greatly reduced war weariness for the next few years, and (2) the effects of a "golden age" for a time, symbolizing how the nation has rallied after the president's death.

Great acts of aggression, such as nuclear attacks, and terrorist attacks, should also have a good chance for the same effects I just mentioned. (Example: The USA rallying and President Bush's popularity ratings soaring after 9-11. Take note, Bush was elected on a VERY slim majority, a large part of the population even believed he was not the legitimate leader, but a serious crisis unified the country behind him. Things like this should be possible in Civ too, don't you think?)

Okay. For a communism, it is likely the Party will simply replace the dead man. And since the Party enforces their views on all Party members, the new leader will likely act mostly like the last one. There should still be a 5% chance of a civil war, reflecting the high degree of control the Party has over the country, but also a 30% chance of the country dropping into Anarchy for a few turns - If someone with different view comes to control the Party, he can essentially tell everyone else "Think Different!" (Wait, no, that would be if Steve Jobs came to control the Communist Party...) but temporary anarchy may result from the transition, followed by either a return to Communism or a change to another government (up to the player).

	08-04-2002 07:18									#5
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Those are good ideas. Would the leader face change then? For instance, if you killed Lincoln would you deal with George Washington in Diplomacy? That would add a whole new twist in the game. However, these effects seem very strong. To balance, I think that the success rate of the assassination attemps should be very low. If your spy is caught before the act, then that Civ should go to war with you. If caught after the assassination, then every other civ should declare war on you (except for Civs that are already at war with the Civ whose leader you assassinated)

	08-04-2002 18:50									#6
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Those are good ideas. Would the leader face change then? For instance, if you killed Lincoln would you deal with George Washington in Diplomacy? That would add a whole new twist in the game. However, these effects seem very strong. To balance, I think that the success rate of the assassination attemps should be very low. If your spy is caught before the act, then that Civ should go to war with you. If caught after the assassination, then every other civ should declare war on you (except for Civs that are already at war with the Civ whose leader you assassinated)

Yeah, the chance of success would be very low. On the order of 5%.

For sleeper agents assigned to stay in the country for as many years as it takes to get into place, and then assassinate the leader, they would have a, say, 20% chance of getting in place, and if they did and got the order to go ahead, a 90% chance of success. If they don't get the order (You want to wait), there would be a 5% chance per turn of their being discovered or removed from their position from other reasons.

How's that?

	09-04-2002 01:12									#7
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Good idea, but the assassination (not the civil war) would need some high chances of success. Personally, I don't use any spies (like the AI) because it's expansive, never works, and ruins my reputation. If I had even lower chances to kill an enemy leader than stealing a tech, I would never go to this after.
Of course, assassinating a leader would mean assassinating the first puppet of the given time in the Civ, not the true leader (Bismark survives as he did for the past 5000 years, you survive as you did for the past 5000 years)

	09-04-2002 01:55									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

What I would really like to see is a way to damage the relationship between two AI nations. For instance, the Greeks (you) could destroy Germany's production in Berlin and leave incriminating evidence pointing towards the Romans. It would strain the relationship between Germany and Rome, and could lead to war between them. Of course, you being the good nation that you are, would side with the Germans and assist in punishing the Roman "terrorists".

Implementing a system like that would make the spy/espionage a LOT more interesting & useful.

-- twistedx

	09-04-2002 06:20									#9
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Espionage/spying in Civ 2 was so much better and more fun.

	09-04-2002 07:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Shadowlord For instance, after Lincoln's assassination, his successor pushed for things that were a lot stronger than what Lincoln had planned for the South, and they went through.

Actualy, his successor wanted to be a lot more _lenient_ than Lincon was going to be, Johnson was a southerner, after all. But the problem was that Lincon was holding back a lot of Republicans who wanted to punnish the south. After Johnson was impeached (but not convicted), he rolled right over for those who favored a more harsh version of reconstruction.

quote: Originally posted by Shadowlord After Kennedy's assassination, his successor rammed Kennedy's policies down down Congress' throat, and Congress went ahead. LBJ was eventually one of the most disliked presidents ever by the end of his time in office, but he did get Kennedy's policies through Congress - And it is in doubt whether those policies would ever have gone through had Kennedy survived. Congress probably would never have accepted them.

This is a big ol' myth. LBJ was wholeheartedly in favor of civil rights-- JFK was not. In fact, when a major protest march hit Washington DC, Kennedy sent LBJ OUT OF THE COUNTRY because LBJ was too sympathetic. JFK dragged his feet at every turn to hold civil rights in cheque, but momentum was building so fast that it was either get out in front or get smashed. When he was assassinated, LBJ was able to use his name to push it through congress.

	10-04-2002 10:05									#11
	Re: Suggestions for Firaxis, about Spies/Espionage Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I like your ideas. I think many of the items on your wish list could be accomplished by bringing back the old spy unit from Civ2. Others might even benefit by adding some new options to the original unit.

1) Could be possible if a spy "joins" a city (any city, not just the capitol). Assassination attempts would make more sense if aimed at the city governor (chance of throwing city into disorder, production, science penalties for that city, etc) --or-- if you also consider a modified Leader (the ones that appear from elite combat unit victories) as a potential target, this would make great sense. To assassinate the leader, you would have to 'know' which city the leader was based in. Of course, a spy's attempt to enter a city and "join" the population would have a certain chance of being detected resulting in the usual international incidents, reputation hit, War, etc. Once joined, you would have access to the city screen (investigate city).

2) Similar to the old "bribe" action, except the bribed unit maintains its original nationality. A permanent view of a city could also be accomplished per my response in # 1 above.

3) See # 1, modified by type of government as to chance of anarchy.

4) See # 1. A spy in a city should be able to determine tech advances have occurred, with modifiers increasing chances of success of the particular city is producing somethign that is made possible by the new tech advance. The 'steal tech advance' action would pretty much stay the same, with this caveat: to steal the tech, the spy must successfully leave the city and return to a friendly city. Certain communication advances may make other routes possible.

5) Similar again to the bribe action. Hmm. what if spies were able to "join" an enemy unit? Position would be easier to obtain, and if War broke out, the spy could sabotage the unit prior to engagement, and have a chance of escaping to a friendly city/unit.

6) Already covered in 1 and 2.

7) Consider possible modifier if spy is killed before having a chance to "rat" out the informants.

Costs: X number of shields (training) and x gold per turn (funding operations, maintaining resources). Certain missions would be lump sum as before.

Informants might also become more demanding as time goes on (not unlike the current bartering system the AI is accustomed to, but less severe of course!) A double-cross could occur at any time (would require the civ to produce an undercover agent to infiltrate and expose the "leak").

Final note: bring back the intelligence reports!