08-04-2002 04:40									#1
	Official "I've Abandoned Moo3" Thread Put an end to popups!

When I first discovered that one of my favorite series was being reincarnated I was excited. I started checking out everything I could on the web and found the Moo3 website. It was a goldmine and imagine my surprise when I discovered that the devs actually cared what gamers thought and wanted their input on questions of game design. Brilliant, I thought! The people who will be spending money on the game will actually get to feel like they are a "part" of the process and the devs get free market research and sometimes excellent suggestions from the gaming public, basically for free too. I though, "Boy! These guys sure are serious about making a great game here. I want to be a little part of this, just a little and I'll be happy." The devs were creating a game I was excited about and would be happy to pay a premium for.

Of course, I knew cuts would have to come eventually. I knew it probably wasn't likely that everything that made me so excited was going to make it in. The big shocker came when it was somethings that were going to absolutely make the game stand out from the crowd (the Ethos system especially). The devs said, "Its OK. We knew somethings had to go but we are still going to make a great game here." I was worried but willing to take their word for it. I thought, "Come on! This is Alan here. He's the captain at the helm. He'll bring us through Ok."

At that point I kind of drifted away from the project for a while. I'd stop in at the forum and chat once or twice a week, find out everything was still cool and go away happy that the project was still solid and although changed, still had the best interests of its gaming public at heart. Imagine my surprise to stop in the other day and find everything going downhill and fast. The opinions of two mods I had come to respect had become taboo and themselves stripped of power and position. Stormhound was nowhere to be found, Alan was apparently muzzled and another game feature that had me excited and would set moo3 apart from the rest was lost (IFPs). People who were regs at the forum were dropping like flies and the tension was noticeable.

I have voiced my displeasure with such moves and my concerns over the direction the project is taking. I have come to believe that the publishers of the game have little if any concern with creating a game that could have been a masterpiece. Many on the forum have switched into Ultra-Insubordination-Alert-Mode, maybe gunning for those open mod slots. The sudden changes in the project, the design team and the air of mistrust on the official forum do not inspire my confidence that QS (nor Infogrames either, for that matter) has any concern with the opinions of its gaming public. Cory Nelson has comeout and said that everything is OK and not to panic and that we will be informed about the changes soon and exactly what it all means. However, I have also heard that certain elements at QS and probably Infogrames too, have remarked that the whole idea of involving the gaming public in the design process was a horrible idea and that they will never do so again.

After being jumped on for voicing my concern over the direction of the project and that Infrogrames is only concerned with profits and not creating quality products that meet consumer desires, I have cut my ties with them and will not support a company that is set on continuing a policy of mediocrity. Make me two games a year that blow my mind and I'll pay big bucks for them. Consistently publish 20 games a year that hold my attention for a week and then drive me back to the software store and you earn my scorn forever.

	08-04-2002 05:46									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Gehenna, it's been a sad few days in the Moo3 world. Hound, Harel, I, Envoy, and a growing list sympathize and hope you stay in touch.

The biggest tragedy, and you're right about this, is blaming the open design process. It's worked wonderfully over with Neverwinter Nights and is a model of how to amass good word of mouth, loyal fans, etc. To see such a promising policy degraded by whatever is happening to Moo3 is sad at best.

Gehenna, may all your gaming choices bring you months of enjoyment,

	08-04-2002 07:30									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

As you, i have been very excited about the game being designed. This is pretty much from the start of the design process (that i am aware of anyway).

I have invested way too much time into this game (simply as a reader of the message board, but also coming with a couple of suggestions, etc) that i am willing to say "oh well, thats that, the game is now ruined beyond all hope". Instead of clinging to every wild theory is out here, i stick to the official word.. there isnt much else i can do. That there are people that know more than me regarding this game....oh yes, there undoubtably is. But until i am told (from someone i consider official, or formerly official) what those changes are, i stick to what i know, not what i *think*.

Yes, i have conspiracy theories and "doom and gloom" theories, but i keep those to myself and hope i am wrong. Seeing that this game has taken up a lot of my time already, what do i have to lose by staying positive for another couple of weeks until QS officially releases the design document which will contain the answers to most, if not all our questions ? The answer is simple, i dont have anything whatsoever to lose..

That you see people "gunning for the open moderator slots" is ludicrus... something tells me that QS wont be giving out a lot of new moderator passes, and if that is the only reason you see people defend QS, then i pity you. We defend QS because we DONT KNOW what will happen to the game. We are not privilieged enough to have inside information, and with a promise of an official word, we await that. This official word might ruin my last hope for the game, thats true...but until i KNOW, i have no intention of feeding the fire by sprouting a lot of nonsense and speculation around.

Could perhaps the reason people are jumping you on the Delphi forum have anything to do with the following statement made by you ? I quote :

"No, no, no. Don't boycott. COPY, COPY, COPY. PIRATE, PIRATE, PIRATE. Don't just stop buying their products, copy them and pass them around like chips at a party. Software companies that consistently produce quality products and are conscious of consumer demands and concerns I am willing to spend big bucks on. These are few and far between. The ones that consistently jerk my chain however, soon find themselves boarded by my murderous band of software pirates. ARRRRRRRGGGHHHH, Matey!!! It's the life o' a software pirate for me!

Gehenna_CA, Moo Stormtrooper (Well, that's being reconsidered) and scourge of the Software Seas. AAARRRRRRGGGHHHHH!
"

If you think i like Infogrames, you are wrong. I despise them as a publisher. I am very scared of the direction MoO 3 seems to be heading into...but i will NOT speculate until i have the official word in the matter.

	08-04-2002 09:09									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well you are probably right about the getting jumped on for the Software Pirates joke. That post was written right after I found out about all the stuff going on that I think is death for the project. I may have went a little overboard and over reacted but what is done is done. My humour tends to be a little more caustic then most. Anyway, that may be the only response to companies that pull that contiunally pull this kind of stuff. Someone had suggested a boycott which I feel would be an ineffective method of getting software publishers to change their business model. There are better ways to hit them in their wallets than by just not giving them any money.

As I said on the Moo forums I KNOW whats getting hacked because I've been there for well over a year and I've watched it get dropped. Everything that exicted me about the game, that would set it apart from the rest, is gone. That is not speculation, I've based my increaing displeasure with project on features that have already been cut. Now they're changing the design focus again. You may be willing to sit back and wait to see if they get their act together but I'm not so passive. If I have to raise a little hell to get something done, I'll do it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as they say. Watching QS drop people who have contributed alot to the project for free doesn't sit well with me either.

I think this is one thing on which you and I will have to agree to disagree. Let's just drop it because we will never convince one another.

	08-04-2002 09:26									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I thought it was "Squeaky wheel gets the kick", hehe. (at least, that is what Minsc is so eager to let out of him in BG)

What we know this far, is that the following things have been cut :

Player events
Ethos system
IFP system
Space monsters

If you know of anything else that have been cut, then you know more than me. I agree with you tho, the list is devastating.. and the thought that they might add anything to that list is da*n near excuciating. The game HAS been hopelessly butchered in regards to its original vision, but this does not convince me that the game isnt any good anymore. Its not all i hoped it would be, but thats not saying that its bad. My initial reaction was much like yours, but i am keeping the door open for the possibility of the game being good.

If you think i havent "raised hell", go look at the Delphi board, hehe. I dont think i am very popular with some of the QS employees... I try to defend QS to be best of my ability, but if i have a question, i am not afraid to ask it, and if i see an inconsistency in an official comment from a QS employee, i am not afraid to voice that either. This has, i believe, left me being uhm.. not exactly their favorite person on the Delphi board.

I am not sure we are disagreeing that much really, we just have different ways of looking at it. I try to stay positive, which is probably the biggest difference between us. But as you say, we can "agree to disagree"

	08-04-2002 09:36									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

add : annals of space in time
allied victory


and the next fourm is allready cut.

	08-04-2002 13:41									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, in a way I can understand Quicksilver's decision to be much more conservative when it comes to "official fora" and large amounts of open communication with the public during the design process of their next game.

The design team had what they themselves admit was a very ambitious design. There are a number of features that have had to be axed. The reaction to the cuts has not all be good, despite assurances that the cuts have been made for good reasons. Even before the features were cut, there were people who were not happy about some or all of them. In general, the forums themselves were not all lightness and joy, and no senior management person with any amount of business and marketing training is going to be happy if they see that.

True, most people who hang around these places eventually learn that otherwise rational people can develop a digital version of Turettes Syndrome when given access to a chatroom or forum where they can spout of on a subject to their hearts content with no more dire consequence than being banned from that forum. They either ignore the poor soul, or give into the darkside and vent their day's frustrations by engaging in a meaningless flamewar with someone they'll never meet and odds are will utterly fail to change the opinion of.

But for someone with only limited exposure to such habitudes of the net, I'm sure many online forums can be shocking, and thats without discovering the sick and twisted internet back alleys where 40 year old men living in their parents basement pretend they are 16 year olds to entice other 40 year old men into something involving Red Vines, a ferret and Superfreak on vinyl.

But seriously, for some developers it makes much sense to keep very, very quiet. I mean do you think Brian Reynolds and his team at BHG would have gotten much of a favorable reaction if they had announced they were going to do what is essentially an RTS version of Civ when that company started, before they had a chance to even work on the game? Sadly enough, in a forum like this one or the Delphi forum, probably not. Sure some people would probably be for it, but at least as many would have been totally against it. But now, after a couple of years of work, and a lot to show for there efforts, things are probably more than a little different. (Sidebar: I honestly don't know what the reaction to RoN has been, I'm just using it as an example of the not talking till the game is really well developed method).

On the other hand, I can also see why the makers of NeverWinter Nights would actively seek fan participation. In many ways, they really aren't developing a game. Oh, sure I have no doubt they will release at least a small adventure as part of the package. But to my understanding, what they are really striving for is to create an excellent RPG engine that the fans can use to create their own worlds and adventure in with their friends. In fact, one of my co-workers will almost undoubtably buy NWN when it comes out, because it has the potential of allowing him to adventure with one of his regular gaming groups without driving 6 hours one way on the weekend to get to them. For this situation, it is almost imperative that the developers keep very well in touch with the pulse of the consumers they are targetting, because a major flaw at release could effectively kill the game before it gets a chance.

Indeed one could make arguements for both sides ad nausem, so I suppose that it really comes down to the simple fact that as long as the games that are coming out are good, each developer has the right to choose how much they communicate.

	08-04-2002 13:47									#8
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Bleyn I mean do you think Brian Reynolds and his team at BHG would have gotten much of a favorable reaction if they had announced they were going to do what is essentially an RTS version of Civ when that company started, before they had a chance to even work on the game?

actually, they had said they were going to do rts games from day 1 of the announcement of the creation of BHG

	08-04-2002 16:53									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Bleyn But for someone with only limited exposure to such habitudes of the net, I'm sure many online forums can be shocking, and thats without discovering the sick and twisted internet back alleys where 40 year old men living in their parents basement pretend they are 16 year olds to entice other 40 year old men into something involving Red Vines, a ferret and Superfreak on vinyl.

Are you trying to tell me that someone has found out that i am in reality a 60 year old cross dresser heavily into S&M ?!? damn, and i who thought the internet gave anonymity...there goes that idea

hehe

On a more serious note, while i agree with many points in your post, i feel that you are wrong on a fundamental level.

Cuts, rewritings and other events have happened to the game several times in the past without anyone going on a rampage.

When the space monsters were cut, people took that calmly.
When the events system was cut, people took that calmly as well.
When the ethos system was cut, some people were grumbling a bit, but most took it calmly.
When the game was postponed, people took it calmly.
See a pattern ?

Now..there isnt really a pattern there yet (apart from people taking things easy), the pattern, and point of the whole thing comes here. The one announcing all of this was Alan, with Storm and the forums moderators to back him up, offer insights, etc.

So, in the last week we have gotten another cut (IFP's)..big deal.. i dont think this by itself would have been a major problem for the regulars to handle. Ditto for yet another setback on the release date.

What IS a problem however, is the following :
Banning Alan Emrich from posting on the board
Sacking Stormhound

Those two people were the "voice of QS" to most of us, and having those two people unavailable, THEN announcing the cuts, that didnt sit well. Now add in the following into the mix :

- Removing the moderator powers of the most active moderators (Harel, Sencho, Storm (Stormhounds fiancee) for reasons the fans cannot even begin to guess at. And the reasons we HAVE been given, are somewhat lacking, and under no circumstance warranted.

- Suddenly, the board is being run over by senior QS management that tells us to be calm and that everything is still normal (while wielding their shiny new gavels, that i assume they gave themselves as there are now no *regular* moderators present anymore).

- The wanton deleting of posts, that makes no sense, and looks to be someone refreshing the board every 30 seconds and deleting at random..

- A post by Alan Emrich aimed to "calm the seething masses", but which looks like nothing other than something he was forced to write. (that is just speculation by me, but i found the whole tone in his post unsettling). It was eventually confirmed by the games producer (Cory Nelson) that Alan Emrich is still banned from posting on the boards, and that the one post was an exception. When i asked him if Alan wrote it of his free will or if he was coerced by the management to write it, Cory replied that "it was either instigated by Alan himself, or by Bill Fisher. Knowing Bill Fisher, i bet its the former".

- And of course one other thing, that would have been funny, had the other events not been this serious..now, i am just looking back at it with a morbid facination. The date where most of this happened...april 1st....april fools day.. Most of the board did not even know if they were to take it seriously, or as a joke.. most decided to take it as a joke, and hopefully wake up with everything still normal... If only we had been that lucky

Now...one could chalk this down to QS not having a PR department to handle things, etc etc. Well..one does not need to be educated in PR matters to see what the result of those actions will be ? Whatever happened to common sense ? I dont think i have ever seen anything even remotely close to this poor handling of things... So as to the reason that things are the way they are on the different forums...i lay ALL of the blame squarely on QS's shoulders, to even imply anything else is stupid beyond belief.

Disclaimer (hehe) : I dont know the moderators on this board, and what standards they have for deleting and / or editing posts. Therefore, hopefully this post will survive perusal by said people. If not, oh well

	08-04-2002 17:03									#10
	So sad... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

It is quite sad.
Some of what the "big kahuna" said is true, if MoO3 hadnīt been such a public project the whole affair would have not such an big impact, if it even had happened. On the other hand, I think that MoO3 was on the way to become a new groundbreaking game, just BECAUSE of the openness to the public.
But this is not my point here. I have to admit, I didnīt by ALL the software I have, and I doubt anyone here does. Donīt misunderstand me, I have quite a big collection of gameboxes - they are all games I either bought at once because I knew they were excellent, or because I played a "demo" and then bought them.
Anyway, before the whole mess happened (including the IFP cut) Iīd probably have raced to the phone and pre-ordered it as soon as the release date went close.
Now I probably just gonna wait and see whether Fairlight or Deviance wins the race.

	08-04-2002 20:33									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

well CharonX,
I have bought all the games i own(about 40), i've done my bit on all the platforms i've owned to support the software industry. But things are changing, it seems, in the way the industry produces games.
I would love to buy 10-15 games a year, but quite frankly the quality isn't there and i usually end up getting 3 or 4. I can't see this changing anytime soon. But please, not all of us pirate software.But maybe i'll be pushed into it by unscrupelous software producers?!

	08-04-2002 21:28									#12
	Delphi Refugee Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, i've finally gotten around to de-lurking on these boards, prompted in the large part by the current atmosphere over on the official Moo3 delphi forums, i.e. ( + + + )which has gotten to the state where i just dont want to be there for a while.

I'm sure my departure wont quite as catastrophic as stormhound/sencho/harel's, but i've noticed that quite a few of the forum 'minor royalty' are quietly disappearing as well, and the place just isn't the same any more.

I have to say that while i've given up on the delphi forum for the time being, i havent given up on the game itself.... yet. I feel we should all reserve judgement until the official list comes out (although IMHO the outlook is not too good).

It seems to many people that QS/IG are acting without concern/respect for either the fans or their own staff. i.e. they are acting like every other business out there. This is a shame, but doesnt necessarily prohibit them from releasing a good game at the end of the day.

BTW, Sencho: someone here at apolyton also seems to have it in for you... Sancho/Stancho/etc - is this just laziness, dyslexia or part of a sinister plot?

	08-04-2002 22:28									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well sencho is Japanese for captain. Sancho is a standard Spanish name. As long as he doesn't claim to be me no worries. Remember, I'm the funny one.

	09-04-2002 00:33									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Nahhh, Markos just can't spell.

Don't worry about what you say here, usually it takes a lot to get banned. Just visit the Apolyton.Community forum.

	09-04-2002 00:56									#15
	Re: Delphi Refugee Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Daveybaby BTW, Sencho: someone here at apolyton also seems to have it in for you... Sancho/Stancho/etc - is this just laziness, dyslexia or part of a sinister plot?

too much real life....

	09-04-2002 05:59									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

That's ok, I seem to have legally changed my name to Hirel.

	09-04-2002 19:20									#17
	Sancho Increase Your PM Length

Sancho is also slang for lover!

RPM

	11-04-2002 01:34									#18
	cuts Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The problem with you people is that you are only a few who know what all these cuts mean. Most people do not have the faintest idea what IFP is. (inc. Me) Space monsters -who cares I would disable them any way . Ethos or what ever, what is that
Player events what also does that mean. I might disable them anyway. When playing Moo2 I disable the extra crap anyway and so do many other I know.
I do not think your complaints will make a difference in sales because 99+% of the poeple do not know what all the cuts will mean AND they will not know that there was any cuts at all. I all remember when BOTF came out and we all smashed Hasboro and said we would never buy there games again EVER. Well guess what they are still selling games.
At least wait for the reviews and check the forums after the game is issued perhaps you will be surprised.

	11-04-2002 02:43									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The recent string of events have not considerably changed my outlook on this game. I've always been skeptical, not about MOO3 in particular but about games in general.

	13-04-2002 21:48									#20
	Sencho-san Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Sencho Remember, I'm the funny one.

Punny is more like it…