11-04-2002 04:31									#121
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, you are incorrect. Marx doesn't call for killing anyone, except during war, where it is unavoidable.

Yes Chegitz, that's right and if I recall correctly class warfare was "inevitable". Therefore killing off the bourgeoise was inevitable, meaning that for the proliteriate, i.e., Marx's followers, killing the bourgeoise was "inevitable". Marx certainly wasn't asking his boys to avoid the "inevitable" was he? It seems to me that's a round about way of telling the boys: ( see my sig )

	11-04-2002 05:09									#122
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Class warfare is occuring all the time. It is occuring now, in the United States. Class warfare is the struggle between classes for political, social, and economic rights. It is not open military warfare. A strike is an open battle in the class war. A court injunction agains tht e strike is a blow in the class war. NAFTA was major victory for the bourgeoisie in the class war. When you ask your boss for a raise, it's another struggle in the class war. With Marxism (hell with any German philosophy), you need to dig beyond simplistic appearances to get at the heart of the matter. As long as class society exists, as long as capitalism exists, there wil be class warfare. It doesn't have to be bloody, and we don't want it to be.

Marx did not call for offing the bourgeois pigs. That's generally the blathering of some hothead (like me in a stupid moment of rhetorical excess), than actual political program or even political practice.

In fact, generally when Communists come to power they try and do what they can to keep the capitalists around. Capitalists have the knowledge of running companies and managing that the working class lacks. Capitalists have the money that the Communists need to help get the economy running again. For a variety of reasons, situations change, capitalists flee, join the military opposition, or just end up on the wrong side of someone's political agenda. But the Soviet Union kept trying to attact capitalist investment up until WWII.

	11-04-2002 05:17									#123
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to the Christians, who were trying to demonize the Jews and suck up to the Romans. It is unsubstantiated that Pilot was acting according to the wishes of the Jewish priests and not according to his own interests in squashing all dissent.

You just backed up my own argument that Roman leaders did have a motive to execute Jesus.

thanks

	11-04-2002 05:40									#124
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You just backed up my own argument that Roman leaders did have a motive to execute Jesus.

There was no argument there. The argument is over the role of the Jews in Jeshua's death, which I have read to be inserted well after the events. It is an early example of Christian anti-Semitism.

	11-04-2002 05:53									#125
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I'm begining to learn how Mr. Fun feels at times.

	11-04-2002 05:58									#126
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm begining to learn how Mr. Fun feels at times.

What do you mean?

	11-04-2002 05:59									#127
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What do you mean?

Being ignored.

	11-04-2002 08:50									#128
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Yeah, I do not know why I have been ignored lately in nearly all the threads I participate in.

Maybe those people are not being deliberately snobbish, but it could be that it's hard to pick which posts to respond to in any thread. I hope this is the case.

	11-04-2002 08:52									#129
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Too many posts to which to respond. It happens to the best of us, meaning me.

	11-04-2002 13:16									#130
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MrFun,

quote: Your Point #1: I disagree. I have renounced the Church for its institutional abuse and misuse of religion, but not some of the fundamental beliefs that have roots in Christianity. Now, I am a non-conformist Christian, since I still have my own beliefs on Jesus Christ.

I submit that you cannot do that since the Church virtually created Christianity. Okay, acutally Apostle Paul did, but the Church refined the ideas of Christianity, developed the doctrines, compiled the bible, created theology to defend the faith, and so forth. Where does it say in the bible that YHWH is omniscient, omnipotent, just, and merciful? Without the Church, Christianity that we know would not exist.

quote: Your Point #2: The Romans decided to act on the demands of some of the Jewish leaders in having Jesus executed. The Jewish leaders who hated Jesus saw him as a threat to their established religion. The Romans were happy to give in the demands for the execution of Jesus, because some Roman leaders saw Jesus as a danger to the Middle East provinces under Roman rule. The reason: Jesus advocated a new monotheistic religion that could undermine Roman Empire's hold over the Middle East and other regions if the new religion spread.

1. Romans were dicidedly very tolerant in terms of religion. Why would they fear Christianity when there were a ton of other religions in the area already? As a matter of fact, there's nothing new in Christianity, most of its teachings were borrowed from other religions and/or philosophies. In fact, Christianity competed with lots of local religions until Constantine decided to adopt it as official. Also, Judaism was already a monotheistic religion.

2. How would this religion threaten Roman rule?


DinoDoc,

"1) Christianity is not the Catholic Church. Ask Martin Luther if you don't believe me on that point."

Please see my response to MrFun above. It is highly doubtful that a Martin Luther would rise without the RCC.

"2) Christianity is a religion first and foremost. If a Church fails to act in concert with that religion's ideals, I fail to see how I can not seperate it's actions from the religion."

The Church defined Christianity. The Pontiff of Rome is supposedly God's speaker on earth. What he says is the ideals of this religion is the ideals of this religion. The Church did all the interpretation and preaching and everything. It established the framework and doctrines. Even Martin Luther was just a reaction to the Church.

"3) If you really do believe that, I have to ask how you can subscribe to an idea (Communism) that cost the lives of 65 million civilians in China alone. Seems like a ghastly ideaology to me."

Incorrect analogy. The core ideas of Commuism was clearly formulated and recorded by Karl Marx (and Engels to a lesser extent). It is focused and clearly defined. OTOH, Christianity had not been clearly defined and is still not clearly defined. Even the bible is full of contradictions. As a result, you cannot compare the two, not in this regard.

	11-04-2002 13:20									#131
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Yeah, I do not know why I have been ignored lately in nearly all the threads I participate in.

Because when you post, we all know what specific issue you are talking about and where you are leading .

	11-04-2002 17:45									#132
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara According to the Christians, who were trying to demonize the Jews and suck up to the Romans. It is unsubstantiated that Pilot was acting according to the wishes of the Jewish priests and not according to his own interests in squashing all dissent.

Now, isn't this a bit too much of revisionism.
Taking into account that Christianism only became the Roman official religion plenty of years after the Gospels were writen and prior to that, Christians were actually killed in particularly painfull fashions by the Roman Imperial Regime, I would sugest that this line of reasoning has no base at all.

	11-04-2002 17:50									#133
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There was no argument there. The argument is over the role of the Jews in Jeshua's death, which I have read to be inserted well after the events. It is an early example of Christian anti-Semitism.

What do you mean with being introduced well after the events: that's actually the first time I ever heard of that!!!

	11-04-2002 18:07									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Where does it say in the bible that YHWH is omniscient, omnipotent, just, and merciful? Without the Church, Christianity that we know would not exist.

Let's see if I can help you with that.
I'm too lazy to post you the exact references so I'll try and post only common knowledge parts:

Omniscient:
According to the Gospels, Jesus said that...
... we didn't need to go to public places to pray because God would know we were paying to Him even if in silence and secluded in our rooms (now, how could He do that with ALL the people at the same time?)
... His father knew what was to happen to Him (meaning His cruxification)
... His father new how and when He would return in His glory

Omnipotent:
According to the Bible:
... He created all (and that was never disputed, although it is current doctrine that the Genesis description is a metaphorical one)
... He performed all sorts of miracles, through the prophets, Jesus (in order to acert Himself as God's Son) and the Saints
... He "defeated death" through the Ressurection of the "Son", ie, Jesus

Just:
Plenty of parables on that:
The "Talents" for instance. Another: "the workers on the vineyard".

Mercyfull:
On the top of my head:
The talk with the two thieves on the cross.
and... last but not least
"Father, forgive them for they do not know what they're doing"
(go figure: according to the Bible, He did!!!)

I would say that, without Christianity, the Church would'nt exist
(particularly not in the XXth century; after Vatican II Concilium it became pretty clear that even the Clergymen proclame all christians to be the Church).

	11-04-2002 18:48									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger MrFun, I submit that you cannot do that since the Church virtually created Christianity. Okay, acutally Apostle Paul did, but the Church refined the ideas of Christianity, developed the doctrines, compiled the bible, created theology to defend the faith, and so forth. Where does it say in the bible that YHWH is omniscient, omnipotent, just, and merciful? Without the Church, Christianity that we know would not exist. 1. Romans were dicidedly very tolerant in terms of religion. Why would they fear Christianity when there were a ton of other religions in the area already? As a matter of fact, there's nothing new in Christianity, most of its teachings were borrowed from other religions and/or philosophies. In fact, Christianity competed with lots of local religions until Constantine decided to adopt it as official. Also, Judaism was already a monotheistic religion. 2. How would this religion threaten Roman rule?

Then how do you explain that I still believe in Jesus Christ, yet not belong to any denomination??

When I read the history of the early relations between Christian leaders and Roman leaders, it was a relationship of persecution of the Christians at the hands of Roman officials.

Geez -- just read how Nero dealt with the Christians.

As for the reasons, first, let me start with this. The reason why the Romans tolerated the Jewish religion and the other various religions, is because of a longer tradition of those religions, especially the Jewish religion. Even when Roman authorities attacked the bases of Zionist Jews when they sought to revolt, the Romans did not set out to eradicate the entire Jewish religion.

Christianity was an upstart religion, which preached that God was the ultimate being to worship, at the time that Roman Emperors sought to establish a law that required the publich worship of the Roman emperor himself.