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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:18
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just like not communism is evil but the people who pretended to carry it out were.
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Dr Strangelove
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Some of the treasures of the Library were around as late as the 11th century AD, when several tracts on mathematics were borrowed by the Persian mathematicians who wrote the first tracts on "Al-Gebra". It may very well be that the Library was finished off by borrowers remiss in returning what was lent to them.
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Adalbertus
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Cologne, Germany
Feb 2001
time: 06:18
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Why isn't this a multiple-choice poll?
First thing to note: Most of them are crimes in the logic of Christianity, not in the logic of many other religions.
Starting Christianity: A great thing. Many concepts of the Western culture depend on the christianity - including freedom, equality, solidarity (AFAIK, Christians were the first who had the concept of all humans being equal in something else than death - which is in the love of God)
The early supression of heresy and the destruction of the Gnositic Gospels:
Inner-religious dispute. Prosecution of Communists in America was far worse.
The destruction of the Library of Alexandria: Bad thing anyway. According to what I've heard (certainly not the summit of all wisdom) is that the Muslim mob finished the work - but mob is mob. FYI - At this time, Christianity wasn't so much divided into separate groups as it is now.
The suppression of other religions: In some way or the other, this is the way to survive. During the last 2000 years, lots of different ways were employed, some of which I agree with (peaceful missioning), some of which I don't (exerting physical or psychical force).
The Crusades: Definitely a crime - from the inner-Christian logic: Jesus gave very clear instructions on how mission is to be performed. If people don't want to be converted, they don't. Shake the dust off your shoes and move on. In contrary, Mohammed and his two successors conquered an empire from Persia to Spain, which is from the historical actions the same - but is a perfectly good deed in their religion. (I voted for this)
The Inquisition: Definitely a crime: You shall not judge. Also inner-Christian logic.
The supression of science: There was one pope who suppressed the teaching of Galilei. Unfortunately, most popes have the tendency to follow unquestioning their predecessors. On the other hand, I think that Christianity made science possible in the sense that it liberated man from the fear of "asking too much". There is a great difference if you believe in gods who punish every trespassing of the given boundaries of man (as the antique gods did) or if you believe in a god who basically has set you free - much of early science has been done in the attempt to understand what God has done.
The destruction of the Mayan Codices: See Great Library
The witch trials: See Inquisition. And they are also a sign of a weak faith.
The Thirty Years War: Had mainly political origins. This is as assigning the Ireland conflicts to Christianity. The religious part already had been solved in the "Augsburger Religionsfrieden" of (I think) 1583: cuius regio eius religio - whose region his religion. Blame the French and Swedish of meddling in a German conflict.
Supporting slavery: Normally I would like to go over it as a (bad) joke of history, but there is one point which I think is more important: Saint Paul sent back a slave who fled to his ancient master, with an accompanying letter (I think it is the letter to Philemon) that the master should accept his former slave as a brother in Christ. I want to add two things: First, it is not the goal of Christanity to change the hierarchy in the world, simply because the early Christians believed that the end of the world is a matter of a few years. So it was not important for them to change the world but to prepare themselves - and I think this should not be much different today, not because of a near end but because the world doesn't change if the individuals don't. So the most important thing is to get the personal relation between master and slave in order - which is much more a matter of mutual personal respect than of the legal state. Second, in modern (16th-19th century) slavery, Christanity had a very different position, in the sense that speaking against slavery on behalf of the church(es) mattered. There is no excuse for that.
Hetero-sexism: The phrase "my mother conceived me in sin" of the "miserere mei" is a sin in it self. Thus far I am sure about the love my parents have for each other and for me.
Yes, I know that this isn't what you meant 
Televangelism: The banana option is way more serious.
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Dr Strangelove
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Oh, and I put "other". Christians ended slavery, first, towards the end of the Roman empire, after which the germans reintroduced the modified form of servility know as serfdom, then later in the 19th and early twentieth centuries they put an end to slavery worldwide.
They also ended the Roman mass murder rituals known as the gladiator fights.
They encouraged literacy. During the days of the Roman Empire they were the most literate group in he Empire. The survival of Christianity may in fact have largely been due to their utility as educated people. When the germans overran the empire they preserved what little learning that was left.
They invented the idea of organized non-governmental charity and relief. The Red Cross was not started by pagans or socialists.
They invented the idea of international co-operation in the pursuit of peace. No pagans or communists were present at the talks that led to the establishment of the United Nations.
And how about that tolerance? Did you know that when Europeans arrived in northern India, the area where Siddharta lived, Buddhism had been so completely eradicated that monuments marking significant events in his life erected by Asoka, the first Buddhist king, were considered mythical. Oh and then again remember how the Romans, Japanese, and Chinese reacted to idiosyncratic religions like, oh, say, Christianity. How about that Stalin eh? Was he a paragon of tolerance or what?
The Crusades? Did the muslims ask the people of Syria, Israel and Judea if they wanted Islamic rule? I seem to recall that the muslims gained their terrirtory by conquest. How about the muslim "crusades" that penetrated almost as far as Paris, Rome and and Vienna? I imagine that some of our eastern european members may even have grandparents who lived under Ottoman rule.
Last edited by Dr Strangelove on 09-04-2002 at 02:06
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Caligastia
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Despite all the terrible things that have been done in the name of christianity, the world is a better place thanks to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
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SnowFire
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New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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Edit: Hmm, Adelbertus beat me to the punch of replying to all of them. I mostly agree with what he said, but not reason to edit out what I have here.
Starting Christianity in the first place
Unless you're an atheist who doesn't believe in freedom of religion, this is hardly a crime.
Anti-Semitism
Very much an on-and-off thing depending on time and place, much like Islam. Even in the "bad old days" of the Middle Ages, there were often reasonable sized towns consisting mostly of Jews that were at least ignored, if not loved. Some pagans were pretty consistent in hating Jews, though.
Also, more to the point, Anti-Semitism isn't part of church doctrine. Therefore this is something that is entirely up to individuals who actually did bad things.
The early supression of heresy and the destruction of the Gnositic Gospels
Okay, this does have some Scriptural support. Still, many of the early heresies are a lot more hair-raising than denominations today. Just as a remidner, the Gnostics were elitists who thought they alone could stay sinless through their "knowledge," and they strongly de-emphasized the Christian doctrine of love. In terms of attitude, these were pretty much pagans with a new name for their god. Now (being a Protestant) I'm all for every person following the Bible and their path to God, but it did need to be made clear that the Gnostics were no more Christians than Scientologists (sorry, DarkCloud, couldn't resist). I'm not a huge fan of the violence involved, of course.
The destruction of the Library of Alexandria
I agree with previous statements, I've heard this blamed on at least 4 different factions, from the Romans to the Christians to the Arabs to just general rioting. Besides, this was very specific, and certainly hardly doctrinal.
The suppression of other religions
Other other religions? Not doctrinal, blame it on individuals. Or the middle-Catholic Church mostly, but probably not the modern one either. But look at early American colonial writing, and you'll see a lot of the first seeds for tolerance, even among the Puritans whom you wouldn't think of at first.
The Crusades
Pope Urban II. And a lot of annoying nobles. Be a good communist, che, and don't blame the poor serfs who got to support the war and were "good" Christians and didn't have much of a choice.
Still, this was definitely a Bad Thing, but it wasn't in line with Church teachings.
The Inquisition
This one isn't even entirely on the middle Catholic Church. Blame it more on the French & especially Spanish governments. The Inquisition in Spain was much more a political tool than a religious one- root out all who might possibly oppose the throne, and then whip the populace into a religious fervor while you're at it. Ah, the spread of intolerance to help promote nationalism, how lovely... if it makes you feel any better, the Inquisition is what doomed Spain to be a 3rd rate power by totally freezing its intellectual development.
The supression of science
The rare cases this was done, I again blame politics more than religion.
The destruction of the Mayan Codices
Don't know enough to comment intelligently.
The witch trials
Based off a mistranslation of the Old Testament ("thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is NOT correct). Still, I'll give you credit on this one, but considering its scale compared to, say, the Crusades (<30 killed vs. tens of thousands).
The Thirty Years War
And how is this a crime? The Thirty Years war is famous for being the war that ENDED wars based off of religion. And isn't the commie in you happy that the evil Hapsburg empire of the wasteful treasury and peasant suppression was beaten back from conquering the world? Surely somebody stopping them was better than just letting them win, even if they weren't exactly beaten by the noble forces of goodness and light for a good communist like you's standards.
Supporting slavery
Allow me to make a conjecture. First of all, as you know, many of the abolitionist movement were fanatical Christians as well. Many of them also happened to be well-off. I say they did it for moral reasons. The Christians who supported slavery, dare I say it, did so more for economic reasons, and then later came up with a vaugely moral one by supporting it from a really shaky interpretation of the Old Testament.
I say this is one of the great triumphs of Christianity myself, in helping end slavery, not support it. And anybody who reads the New Testament can fairly quickly see where the doctrine stands on this issue.
Hetero-sexism
Yah, that's in the Old Testament. But so is the message of love in the New Testament. I'll give you a bit of credit for this one, but not much.
Televangelism
Ah, at last. This is probably the one of your crimes that is most firmly rooted in doctrine and you can definitely blame Christianity for. Christianity is indeed an evangelical religion, and advances in technology have advanced evangelism.
However, the "crimes" you're thinking of happen to be the fault of the fact that almost every evangelist who uses the TV happens to be a collosal scumbag as well, in an unhappy coincidence. So I'll blame those people for bilking old ladies out of their savings.
other (please list)
The biggest crime of the Church has been the fact that... nah, I'm not going to say it. But I voted for it.
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09-04-2002 00:42
But ultimately I had to go with demonizing an entire group of people, the legacies of which are still conflicting us today.
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