09-04-2002 01:17									#1
	Civ III is too simple Got spare money?

In looking at all of the complaints of the critics and considering my on faults with the game, I have come to the conclusion that the whole problem is that the game has become too simple. At least, that is the stock answer for the 'why' of many of the features of the current evolution of the Civ games.

Take for example the governments - why only 5? Is it because human kind only has 5 basic ways of running things or that is all that the designers felt like programming?

Resources - Could they have included more? Were copper and sugar any less important to the development of civilization than iron and bauxite (aluminum)?

Advisor screens - Do they really contain all of the information I need to know? What about what I want to know?

The list goes on and on. Some of these features I and others want might seem like micromanagement but maybe we like that aspect of the game. So much seems to have been done to the game in terms of making it easier to play that it has made it a boring, repetitive exercise in mouse clicking.

	09-04-2002 01:22									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Heh... well, of all the complaints I've seen, I've never seen anybody saying it was too SIMPLE. I've observed most Civ veterans complaining that there's just too much extra stuff, which is essentially the opposite.

I would agree that some things are too much, and other things I feel were not taken to their full potential.

	09-04-2002 02:14									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I agree with you, however I think that the AIs need to be smart enough to challenge the human without too much cheating. The more thngs you have, the worse the AI is at using them. I think Civ3 is balanced, an they should try to make equal improvements on both AI and extras in Civ4 if it is made.

	09-04-2002 02:29									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The more thngs you have, the worse the AI is at using them.

Artillery is a perfect example. These only benefit the human player currently & the AI has NO idea how to use them at all. What puzzles me is why would they program the AI to build these (and not just a few) if it doesn't know how to use them correctly?

I would prefer more options in the random world generator, mulitplayer or a complete Civ editor rather than simply more stuff. More options in the random world editor means new worlds to explore, new challenges to face, and more/less surprises/randomness. A complete Civ editor would allow for scenarios, ease to add units,improvements,wonders,whatever the individual desires without crashes or bugs messing up the F6 screen. Multiplayer is the ultimate challenge.

	09-04-2002 05:37									#5
	Support Apolyton

I agree that the game is just to simple.

I prefer to say it has a 'thin' feel to it.

	09-04-2002 05:42									#6
	Got spare money?

Too "simple"??

I can list about 80-90 complaints, but that would not have been one of them.

Perhaps you mean "TOO SIMPLEMINDED"? And if you doubt that just look at the mindless - and very short - list of military units and their idiotic values.

My favorite Firaxis idiocy is War Elephants who can be airlifted!!

Last edited by Coracle on 09-04-2002 at 06:43

	09-04-2002 06:35									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Civ3 is too simple in that all it is about is war war war.

Check out the scoring system. A lot of it has to do with how much territory you control. What better way to get more territory than by waging war against your neighbors?


Jaguar Warrior:

Your avatar is offensive. As an american I am insulted by how you portray the USA as Israel's puppet. Take a close look at your avatar and you will see that you are not supporting israel. You are showing the whole world what a bunch of losers the usa is because it is controlled like a puppet by israel. Boo................

	09-04-2002 07:46									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich Jaguar Warrior: Your avatar is offensive. As an american I am insulted by how you portray the USA as Israel's puppet. Take a close look at your avatar and you will see that you are not supporting israel. You are showing the whole world what a bunch of losers the usa is because it is controlled like a puppet by israel. Boo................

Many people find many people's avatar's offensive. If you have a complaint, you can PM the Admin about it... And not try to start a flame war by bringing it up here. Stick to the topic, or take it somewhere else.
(By the way, I'm an American and I have no problem with it... I've seen far worse)

	09-04-2002 07:51									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I beleive Civ 2 was more about war than civ 3 , I have now played my last 4 games without ever starting a war and winning cultural victories everytime. This was impossible in Civ 2 ...

	09-04-2002 07:54									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Coracle Too "simple"?? My favorite Firaxis idiocy is War Elephants who can be airlifted!!

Didn't you see "Operation Dumbo Drop?"

	09-04-2002 08:04									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This is my chief complaint of the game. It is very very simple. It is stripped of features in order to allow a competitive AI.

IMHO, this has been the downfall of the series. It represents a large step backwards in order to please and meet the desires of the CIV fans clamoring for a decent challenge. Prob is that challenge is only one component of the immersibility and replayability factor. The bells and whistles extra units, facilities, t-forming options, government types, etc. are as much if not more of a draw as the challenge of the AI.

I also think that this is the root of most of the dissention. The game does not (IMHO) have long term replayability as the stripped down game is most likely a poor vehicle for MP and Comparison gaming. May have one of the better AI's but so does Big Blue (but I really don't wanna play chess either some may but for me I find it boring).

	09-04-2002 09:50									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Rasputin I beleive Civ 2 was more about war than civ 3 , I have now played my last 4 games without ever starting a war and winning cultural victories everytime. This was impossible in Civ 2 ...

You're the first person here who has claimed to win cultural victories without starting a war. I'd be interested in knowing the particulars. What level do you play on? How do you expand fast enough and still build the early wonders? Do you choose particular civilizations as your computer opponents?

	09-04-2002 18:52									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've won an occ game through culture a few times without declaring war. War's usually declared on me when I won't give literature up. I start building the great library, scale down my science, and use the savings to support a bunch of spearman. Then I usually get a leader or two out of it to rush build the next few wonders. I've gotten up to four leaders within twenty turns. I love having war declared on me in occ games. Easy leaders!

	09-04-2002 19:03									#14
	Re: Civ III is too simple Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Deornwulf In looking at all of the complaints of the critics and considering my on faults with the game, I have come to the conclusion that the whole problem is that the game has become too simple. At least, that is the stock answer for the 'why' of many of the features of the current evolution of the Civ games. Take for example the governments - why only 5? Is it because human kind only has 5 basic ways of running things or that is all that the designers felt like programming? Resources - Could they have included more? Were copper and sugar any less important to the development of civilization than iron and bauxite (aluminum)? Advisor screens - Do they really contain all of the information I need to know? What about what I want to know? The list goes on and on. Some of these features I and others want might seem like micromanagement but maybe we like that aspect of the game. So much seems to have been done to the game in terms of making it easier to play that it has made it a boring, repetitive exercise in mouse clicking.

I agree.

There is a lot of choises at the beginning of the game but
after the beginning of the Industrial age there is just war and
more war. No room for a builderminded player as there simply is nothing to build - except for another tank or battleship.
Witch is even worse is that by forcing player to build battleship after battleship there are soon millions of units to micromanage
and so the tedious endgame is a reality.

-Saurus

	09-04-2002 23:15									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Haupt. Dietrich, Ogie Oglethorpe and Saurus reflect my thoughts.

The focus on warring makes the game (sometimes) so boring predictable ... They've even managed to spoil the science concept
(I'm sure though they'll fix this :$$$: don't bother researching yourself anymore (emperor/deity).

Maybe that's the reason why so many players don't finish their games. I've only finished TWO of them. And I must have played around 40/50 games I suppose ...

Sad. I've also experienced that i sometimes don't care about reloading a

	09-04-2002 23:22									#16
	Path to victory: a one way direction Increase Your PM Length

Haupt. Dietrich, Ogie Oglethorpe and Saurus reflect my thoughts.

The focus on warring makes the game (sometimes) so boring predictable ... They've even managed to spoil the science concept
(I'm sure though they'll fix this ) : don't bother researching yourself anymore (emperor/deity).

Maybe that's the reason why so many players don't finish their games. I've only finished TWO of them. And I must have played around 40/50 games I suppose ...

Sad. I've also experienced that I frequently don't care about reloading a game I've spent many hours on in a row. It's all about settling, building up military, conquering your first adversary, building up empire and military whilst buying techs, and WHOOPS, there we are, modern age again ...

Every game ends quite similar to my experiences. Playing emperor standard continents, I'm always the top civ (ok, if starting position ok and playing religious) toward the end of industrial age. The AI's military, at this point in the game, isn't a threat at all anymore ...



Time to start a new game !

AJ

	10-04-2002 00:53									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

AJ,

You and the other forum members you mentioned are right on. I still search the message boards trying to find a fix that will make Civ 3 fun even though I hardly play anymore. I have started probably 40 games myself and finished 2 (built spaceship just to end the damned game already!). Maybe Firaxis did make the smartest AI ever, but they left the fun out of the game. I know others find the game a lot of fun but I have to admit I don't understand how.

	10-04-2002 03:44									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It seems to me like the people complaining the most about Civ3's war focus are the people who probably never played Civ2. Civ2 was far more war-oriented than this game. There was no culture, and there was no cultural or diplomatic victory. If nothing else, the culture in Civ3 is a rough draft... it could be better, but in Civ2 it was non-existent.

Perhaps you should reevaluate how you play your game to really see if it is as much of a war game as you think... For example, when I play, I always go for space/cultural/diplomatic victory before anything else. I get into wars when I need to. I play my game based on gaining economic control and maintaining strong bonds with my neighbors. I craft alliances to protect myself, and in the event of war, I keep many friends so they can help me against an isolated enemy.

What civilization essentially comes down to is production shields and technology... you build an army to gain more cities to produce more stuff. You build improvements to keep the people happy to the population will grow and the amount of production shields/turn increases. The number of science output/turn increases as well, and you want that to gain new techs to acquire more cities through conquest and build more improvements to increase shield production... sort of aimless unless you know what kind of victory you want to win.

...

Now, I do agree that the focus should be shifted a bit in some ways. In terms of history, 99% of the time, the driving force has been money. Wars are fought to gain rich cities/provinces OR to acquire resources that are not available in the invader's country. In Civilization, money is only there to hurry production, pay off the AI, and conduct espionage. For this reason, I think there should be a greater emphasis on resources in later editions... I think that they should be necessary for maintaining certain units and improvements like factories, and one source should not be enough for an entire civilization. Each source should have a different value, and some can be rich in a particular commodity and others poor in it, and so a civilization can satisfy the needs for a certain portion of the empire but require more sources to fully satisfy it. Energy should become a major focal point in Civ4.

The other point I would make to improving the game would be some sort of definitions for the game. What is the player in the scheme of things? Is he the LEADER of the country? If so, then he shouldn't be able to build temples, cathedrals, banks, marketplaces, factories, and universities which are usually or entirely privately own except under Communism... if the player represents the civilization as a whole (i.e. the lower class, upper class, senate, king, etc.) then its fine the way it is. What IS one unit? 1 man? 100 men? 10,000 men? So on and so forth...

Well, thats my $0.02.

	10-04-2002 17:02									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sound advice Dom Pedro II.

I am a veteran civ2 player and found that game far easier to play even with the constant wars and on Prince difficultly level. It seemed to me anyway, that it was easier to have a leisurely game in civ2 than it is in civ3.

However your advice is fresh in that I haven't heard of that approach before. I'll give it a go.

	10-04-2002 19:30									#20
	Civ III is too simple Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I agree.

	10-04-2002 21:41									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Dom Pedro - I have played many a game of Civ2 and find Civ3 to be more of a wargame than Civ2. How is a great leader gained in the game? By conducting war. What is left to build during the industrial period besides war units? Points are earned for having the most military power. What are Builders like myself to do to compete with the AI other than go to war with it?

I really like many of the new concepts of Civ3 but the game designers seemed to have fallen short of making it something other than an advanced form of Empire. That is the reason for my basic premise that Civ3 is too simple. The great ideas are not carried out far enough.

	11-04-2002 17:54									#22
	Is Go too simple? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Is Go too simple? Is Chess too simple?
They both are certainly simpler than Civ3.
e.g. Resources:
More resources(How many would you like?) wouldn't make the game any better.
Restrictions make a good game.

	11-04-2002 18:12									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Its a tough one to call. Had the game kept the complexity and diversity of Civ II then layered the new Civ III concepts on top I would have a lot more options in creating my own empire. If it had all the WesW Mediaevil Pack extras (from CtP1/2) that would be even better. Unfortunately that then puts the AI under immense strain. If it could not cope with the burden then I'd have just as little incentive to complete a game as currently because Civ III would still have a boring as heck endgame. It would still be preferable to a certain extent because I would have more than one way of enjoying getting there. Current Civ III tactics are almost one dimensional, despite the fact that each country ought to have different strategies to play to their strengths, so I feel no incentive to start a new game to try to do anything differently.

	11-04-2002 18:13									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II Heh... well, of all the complaints I've seen, I've never seen anybody saying it was too SIMPLE

Man, I've seen it like too many times! Civ 3 is to easy, Civ3 is not deep enough, Civ3 needs to be more complicated....and so on.... I agree with these people but I also think that Civ3 is a great game even with it's couple of flaws.

Spec.

	11-04-2002 18:19									#25
	Re: Is Go too simple? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Pius Popprasch Is Go too simple? Is Chess too simple? They both are certainly simpler than Civ3.

No, but in both cases if you discovered that there was only one winning opening and once used this would give you just a few variations before you had a clear victory path by about move 20, would you play the remaining no-brainer moves? A friend of mine used to play 'Fritz' chess on my PC incessantly when I let him, but he only ever played to the point of clear victory or defeat. His only variation was in dialling the AI up or down a notch depending on how tough a challenge he wanted. Unfortunately in Civ III we have yet to get the AI to progress above vaguely capable and substituting cheats like extra resources is not the same.

	11-04-2002 21:39									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Deornwulf I have played many a game of Civ2 and find Civ3 to be more of a wargame than Civ2. How is a great leader gained in the game? By conducting war. What is left to build during the industrial period besides war units? Points are earned for having the most military power. What are Builders like myself to do to compete with the AI other than go to war with it?

well you could always play on chieftan level. then you wont have to worry about war, because the AI wont declare war on you, and all his threats are just bluffs. at least thats my experience, as ive never been in a war on chieftan level, unless i started it.

ahh thank god firaxis didnt change chieftan level too much. at least we still have THAT.

	11-04-2002 21:42									#27
	Immersion Factor Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think my simplicity complaint is directly related to the immersive factor of the strategy required to win the game. The more variables in the game, the more likely I am to play it again since each game is different. Civ3 is better than Civ2 in some ways but the restrictions in the game allows for fewer strategies to win.

Sample Strategies for each victory condition

Space Ship - Build lots of cities, research, steal or trade for techs to build space ship, increase production high enough to build space ship.

Cultural - Build lots of cities, research, steal or trade for techs to build wonders, increase production high enough to build wonders.

Domination - Build lots of cities, research, steal or trade for techs to build cool military units, increase production high enough to build cool military units.

Diplomatic - Build lots of cities, research, steal or trade for techs to build United Nations.

And so on..........

	11-04-2002 22:56									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Spectator Man, I've seen it like too many times! Civ 3 is to easy, Civ3 is not deep enough, Civ3 needs to be more complicated....and so on.... I agree with these people but I also think that Civ3 is a great game even with it's couple of flaws. Spec.

Hear, Hear, Spec.!

Yeah, the game's got it's flaws, but how many of the complainers are going back to play another game of CivIII?

I'm enjoying the crap out of the game. I personally couldn't make a better game - that's why I buy it from someone who can. If I could I would. But what I can do is submit suggestions to Firaxis and look forward to the next Civ XP or even CivIV.

Take those complaints and turn them into suggestions to another great game!

	12-04-2002 00:25									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
It seems to me like the people complaining the most about Civ3's war focus are the people who probably never played Civ2.

Assuming this is true, and in my case it is not, don't you think that a good game should stand on its own? Shouldn't a player who has NEVER played a game of Civilization before be able to enjoy it enough to want to get better and eventually play at the higher levels? The fact is, this is not a game that is going to attract new players. The ones who are defending it the most are veteran "Warmongers" who played at the Deity level in Civ 2 and won by destroying all other civilizations.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Civ2 was far more war-oriented than this game. There was no culture, and there was no cultural or diplomatic victory. If nothing else, the culture in Civ3 is a rough draft... it could be better, but in Civ2 it was non-existent.

There's really no cultural or diplomatic victories in Civ3 either, because to survive long enough to achieve them you have to destroy other civilizations on your continent or wage endless war.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
Perhaps you should reevaluate how you play your game to really see if it is as much of a war game as you think... For example, when I play, I always go for space/cultural/diplomatic victory before anything else. I get into wars when I need to. I play my game based on gaining economic control and maintaining strong bonds with my neighbors. I craft alliances to protect myself, and in the event of war, I keep many friends so they can help me against an isolated enemy.


There's still the problem you didn't mention....if you leave any civilization on your continent, they WILL eventually attack you, unprovoked. And the minute the A1 sees that you are on a winning course, forget about having allies unless they come begging to you after they've been attacked.


[QUOTE] Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
What civilization essentially comes down to is production shields and technology... you build an army to gain more cities to produce more stuff. You build improvements to keep the people happy to the population will grow and the amount of production shields/turn increases. The number of science output/turn increases as well, and you want that to gain new techs to acquire more cities through conquest and build more improvements to increase shield production... sort of aimless unless you know what kind of victory you want to win.

Again, this is a conquest victory you speak of, not a cultural or diplomatic victory.

	12-04-2002 00:45									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Deornwulf - Let me just start by saying that you make some very good points, which I agree with. I do have to say though that alot of the complaints regarding the over-emphasized military are rather superficial problems, in other words they can be edited by the player.

First, war is only the most visible way you are competing with your AI rivals. But you're also competing for resources as you try to expand as fast as you can. You are competing to build wonders and gain technologies. You are competing diplomatically to keep a strong camp of allies to protect against more aggressive civilizations, or maybe your trying to maintain a general state of peace everywhere.

Second, if there only seem to be military units in the later portion of the game, then make changes... create new worker units, or make new improvements, and wonders. I don't really find that all thats left to build are war implements in the later part, but if you do, it can be altered.

To All - Regarding resources, I find that the people who complain most about them are they people who are the biggest warmongers. That's not to say its a bad thing, but it's not the way everyone plays. I myself am a Builder by nature, and I rarely go to war except when I am provoked or am in desperate need of something another civilization has. So would I like to add more resources? For myself, yes, I would. I think what would be more fun then just chucking units at enemy cities would be to have to through treaties, expansion, and acquisition, build a stable, self-sufficient, vibrant economy. But I don't need to make demands to Firaxis to impose this on everyone else though, I can add my own resources for my own personal game with the editor... I'd like the editor to be a bit more user-friendly, and somewhat more sophisticated, but that will come in time.

As for what you, Deornwulf, said about the strategies being simple, they are. This is what I basically said before: the game basically comes down to technology and production. To be the best in both, you need to have a lot of cities. Maybe this isn't the best system since there have been tiny countries that have controlled most of the planet (britain), but I can't think of exactly how this would be implemented in the game.

So all in all, I still find it fun to play.