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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
What would've Jose(?) Saramago written if he had visited Aushwitz in 1944?
In the spring of 1944, when Germany was protecting itself from the cruel terror campaign managed against it by the world Jewry, the third Reich allowed a group of famous writers to visit Treblinka, Aushwitz and Sobibor to see the life conditions in those camps. Among the invited was Jose Saramago, and he described what he saw in this document.
"Already on the way to Aushwitz, the capitol of the future Jewish state, you can feel that life here are not like the life in the capitols of Europe. Roadblocks of the German army on the roads leading to Aushwitz cause huge traffic jams in the entrance and the exit from the camp. Jews who want to leave Aushwitz for their work in Krakow are forced to wait for long hours in the monstrous traffic jams caused by the soldiers of the German occupation who check every car that leaves the camp and search carefuly for the IDs of every Jew who wants to leave for work or to bring food for his family. Not once I saw the soldiers humiliate the Jews and even abuse them. I saw with my own eyes a soldier throwing the ID of a Jewish reporter on the floor and asking him to pick it up. With my own eyes I saw a young German soldier aiming and firing rubber bullets on a group of Jewish kids who were only throwing stones and Molotovs on him."
"But this is nothing compared to the reaction of the Germans to the bombing of a train filled with gas baloons that was about to enter Aushwitz to supply gas to the residents of the camp. Immediately after the teract, in which 9 soldiers were killed I saw German soldiers, armed to the teeth, passing from house to house scaring innocent families. With my own eyes I saw them breaking a wall and entering stright into the living room of a scared Jewish family in the middle of their dinner. The little children started crying and the parents had to calm them down while the German soldiers opened desks and searched for bombs. When the soldiers left the small apartment of the shocked family, they left a horrible mess after them."
"The rude behavior of the soldiers is unthinkable. Some of the Nazi soldiers who invaded the houses of the Jews in Aushwitz arranged the family in one room while the soldiers were lying in their sweaty uniforms on the beds of the Jews without taking off their boots. Such brutal behavior enraged the fighters in the Jewish organizations who opened fire on the German soldiers. The Germans retaliated with tank fire and killed 17 Jewish fighters and five more Jewish civilians who didnt participate in the fighting and were accidently in the middle of the fighting between the Jewish fighters protecting Aushwitz and the German troops."
"When the Germans couldnt accomplish their goal and bring the Jewish organizations to a cease fire the German occupation authorities decided, as ordered by the Fuhrer, to humiliate the Jewish leader of Aushwitz. Tanks surrounded his compound, and he was not allowed to go to Birkenau to a conference of the leaders of the Jewish camps all over Europe. This attempt achieved the opposite result, and the support for the Jewish leader increased. In the moment the world discovered about his house arrest, Jewish and non-Jewish leaders from around the world started flowing to Aushwitz to support the humiliated Jewish leader."
"Eventually, because of the protests around the world, the Germans had to withdraw their forces from Aushwitz and the feeling among the Jews was a feeling of victory. When the Germans tanks were retreating from the camp Jewish children were running after them, destroying the antennas and the third reich flags on the tanks and burning them infront of the German armors. 'look on them! you can really see the feeling of defeat in the their eyes!' called a Jewish boy while throwing molotov bottle on the tank."
"But behind the momentary euforia of the Jews, Aushwitz stays Aushwitz. The suffering of the population is unbelievable. The retreating German soldiers fired on the warm water boilers on the roofs of the Aushwitz homes and the residents of the camp were forced to shower in the cold water of spring 1944. Some soldiers broke the windows of Jewish luxury stores, and even plundered siggaretes and beer cans.
A tank crew turned on a speaker playing the German anthem, hurting the feeling of the Aushwitz Jews."
"The citizens of Aushwitz told about two cases when German roadblock soldiers prevented Jewish pregnant women from going to the hospital in Krakow and cause the death of two babies. An old Jew who suffered a severe teeth pains was forced to walk on foot from Aushwitz to Birkenau to get a treatment from a local dentist specializing in gold teeth".
"From the reports of the humanitarian organizations working in the different camps, in the last 15 months, from January 1943 to this spring of 1944 at least 1200 Jews died in Birkenau, Aushwitz, Sobibor and Treblinka, while the German casualties are only 400, in clashes with Jewish freedom fighters. A simple math shows that in all these camps, in average, 3 Jews were killed every day! As a humanist writer and the Nobel prize laureat I can say this : The horror of Aushwitz, like i've seen with my own eyes, can only be compared to what Jews will be doing in 60 years to Palestinians in Rammalah."
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
Israel is far more suitable for Jews today, because of the historical roots there. |
Um... and the Muslims don't have historicall roots there? I mean close to 1000 years ownership of the site would, I think, give some sort of historical right to the area. |
No one denied it.
But in the current circumstances, to ensure our survival, the maximum we can give is what was offered by Barak.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Umm, spraybear, if you use actions that are 55 years old to justify your view, why not 60 years? Or 100? How about 2000?
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He's not the only one doing so...
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Felch
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Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:18
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Everybody has a right to live in peace wherever they wish, so long as they respect the rights of others.
The Palestinians have, in violation of both Islamic law and Natural law, used suicide bombings to try to sway Israel into ceding territories it annexed for its own protection.
There aren't analogies to reflect this situation, and the Holocaust example is both tiresome and trivializing of one of the greatest crimes ever committed by Europeans. It would take a work of fantasy similar to Gulliver's Travels to find anything similar. European states, and the United States, supposedly in solidarity with the rest of the free world in opposition to terrorism, are condemning Israel in its own domestic issues, when Israelis are being murdered for no reason whatsoever.
How's this for an example PH? Northern Ireland. For seven hundred years the Irish were invaded, pillaged, tyrannized, starved, and deprived of basic civil and human rights, especially the right to religious freedom. Following the negotiated autonomy of the IFS, extremists in the Republican movement first waged a violent civil war with their own Free State, and more recently carried out attacks in the UK. The Irish were historically treated at least as inhumanely as the Palestinians, and the tactics used by the British and the loyalist paramilitaries in supressing the PIRA during the past few decades involved detainment without trial, secretive military tribunals, and heavily armored vehicles being used to patrol city streets.
Bearing in mind that even a modern, self-righteous, WASPish state would deprive its own citizens of basic liberties in order to quell a much less barbaric uprising, how can we legitimately condemn the Israelis who are simply doing the same thing the British did near the end of the last century?
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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Eli: ?
Drake: Please elaborate. BTW, are you by any cahnge one of the people who claim that Bill O'Reilly only seems to be biased because all other media in the world are biased to the left?
Spraybear: quote:
Well, take your pick. 1948. or last week in a Israeli restuarant. |
I'm sorry, what happened last week? Was a german customer rude to the jewish waitor? should we firebomb Berlin?
You could of course be referring to the palestinian freedom fighter to set off a suicide bomb, but I fail to see how that is connected to whether Europeans are biased or not...
It also seems I overstimated your intelligence. I assumed you would understand that if you extend the time frame only five years, you encompass the German Reich and the Holocaust. It is pretty clear that the situation has changed quite drastically... As one editorial in Todays LATimes put it 'jews today go to germany for vacations, while claiming that arab anti-semitism can only be met with tanks'.
So you might want to be more careful when you set your time limits. How about looking at a more realistic perspective, i.e. the last ten years or so?
You also seem to confuse 'biased' with 'partial'. They are very different things. European politics are, AFAIK, not partial to or against muslims. Nor are the partial to or against Israel. They are, however, condemning the Israeli practice of aggression.
The U.S., on the other hand, has shown itself to be immensly partial, supporting right-wing goverments mainly because they are anti-communist, and in more recent years supporting Israel no matter what atrocities that country carries out.
But I might be wrong. Please, if you have more information, show how european politcs (as in the EU, not individual countries unless you can show the same practice being carried out by at least five independent nations) is partial. I'd like to know. I grant that the French insistance on importing bananas from their former colonies is a partial policy, and I don;t agree with it. I don't think it matter much, however.
The arabs arean't hiding what Europeans (and the rest of the world apart from the US) consider a struggle to liberate their land from a foreign occupier. I guess the US, never had had a foreign power occupy their land can't really sympatise...
As I've said before. I don't belive suicide bombings are effective right now, mainly ebcause the person who benefits most from these acts is Sharon... Giving him more justification to eliminate the peace process, which has been his goal for many many years. but to condemn a peoples struggle for their own nation is to turn your back on 200 years of civilization...
Felch, there are MANY examples of similar struggles. The most obvious one is the French resistance. The french resistance killed both civilians and soldiers of the occupying germans, not to mention collaborators among the french. History shows them as heroes... do you really think history will do anything else with palestinan freedom fighters?
In Northern Ireland, the english did carry out atrocities, something they have been very apologetic over. It should be noted, however, that not until the snglish realized that meeting violence with violence was not going to work did the IRA lose power... When this is brought up, Israeli apologists usually claim that the Norther Ireland conflict is completely different for a myriad reasons...
And in one sense it is. England would have happily gotten rid of Norther Ireland if it could, but the voters in NI wanted to belong to england. Israel, on the other hand, is trying to acquire land through the occupation and removal of the legitimate population of palestine. they have no interest in peace, as that would effectively stop the ongoing landtheft...
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Felch, there are MANY examples of similar struggles. The most obvious one is the French resistance. The french resistance killed both civilians and soldiers of the occupying germans, not to mention collaborators among the french. History shows them as heroes... do you really think history will do anything else with palestinan freedom fighters? |
How many people do you know who think the Polisario front is a great band of freedom fighters? How about the Jaish e Muhammed and the Harkat al-Mujahadeen, liberating Kashmir? Or maybe the Uighurs? The reason the French resistance is praised is that it fought Nazis, not because it fought to put the border of France on the Rhine rather than the Loire. If it were the latter rather than the former which was to their credit, history would remember the French as the great heroes of WWI and the Germans as its villains. In fact, it views the struggle as essentially an amoral one, with the only possible villains being uncompromising statesman on both sides.
quote:
And in one sense it is. England would have happily gotten rid of Norther Ireland if it could, but the voters in NI wanted to belong to england. Israel, on the other hand, is trying to acquire land through the occupation and removal of the legitimate population of palestine. they have no interest in peace, as that would effectively stop the ongoing landtheft... |
As you yourself would explain if the British were Jews, Northern Ireland is an example of zoning. 
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The surrounding Arab states are doing the same thing. In many ways, they are worse. Israel isn't occupying the West Bank for political reasons; they're doing it for their own survival. The Arab states, on the other hand, allow the Pals to live in the squalor of the refugee camps because it provides a powerful tool for Arab leaders to use to destabalize Israel and maintain their own corrupt regimes. Yet we never hear the international community protesting the cynical actions of the Arab states. I guess some people just find it easier to blame the whole problem on Israel, irregardless of the truth. |
By now, Israel has occupied the West Bank for about 35 years. I guess that should have been sufficiently long to provide a final solution to this conflict. I see three possibilities -please correct me when there are still other possibilities:
- Kill ALL Palestinians
- Deport ALL Palestinians to the frontier
- Make a lasting peace with the enemy: giving the Palestinians -the former inhabitants of this country- a substantial part of former Palestine and also a part of Jerusalem.
Originally the UN plan was to make Jerusalem international territory. Giving less than 20% of all land will not do!
When no final solution will be reached in the short turn, Israel will be wiped off the face of the earth sooner of later. Time is running out!
In my opinion the international community -which includes Europe and the US- has committed a most heinous crime by first allowing the Holocaust without doing anything to thwart it, then allowing the Jews to be slowly tormented, undermined, killed and wasted in some extremely volatile and underdeveloped part of the world -largely desert- acting as a hateful colonial oppressor, far away from Europe and the US.
I guess this has been one great pharisaic, Christian conspiracy from the beginning: making Jews the unpaid guardians of 'our' Holy places!
The killing of Palestinians -actually far more Palestinians are killed- is no problem at all: the life of an 'Arab' is still even more useless than the life of a Jew!
When the Muslims of Srebrenica were slaughtered -about 7000 men- Dutchbat wisely looked the other way.
That is probably also the reason the US -and Europe to a lesser degree- do support these unpleasant and corrupt regimes, like the shah(Iran), Saddam Hussein(Iraq), Syria, Turkey, Saudi-Arabia etc. To my knowledge Bush and O.benLaden moved in the same upper walks of life!
Yet we never hear the international community protesting these extremely cynical actions of Europe and the US!
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09-04-2002 14:38
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