09-04-2002 15:00									#1
	Michelangelo's Chapel,quickbuild plans. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

We really need Michelangelo's Chapel,that we all know.
In a few turns we will have Monotheism and then we will start building the Wonder.
We already have quite some shields accumulated and have 3 caravans waiting to help us out...but all of this will not be enough.
Therefor I would suggest a temporary tax-boost to 70% untill we have enough to rushbuild.
To compensate the techloss in those few turns I would then send diplomatic missions to all foreign nations with the only goal to exchange knowledge(techs and maps).

This is a very important decision and therefor I really want the fiat of the foreign and science-advisor(for tech-exchange) and from my trade-advisor(teporary taxchange)
and ofcourse the votes of the ppl

You get 3 days to vote,please do so.

Shade

	09-04-2002 15:32									#2
	Foreign Ministers veiw Put an end to popups!

Our Only embassy tells us we have all the techs that the Indians have, We know that the AI often share techs between themselves so I would assume that we actually have a tech lead at present. When we build more embassies we can check to be sure if any other civ has a tech we need.
If other civs have no techs that we don't have there is nothing to swap for so there is no point in asking to exchange techs if they have nothing to give.
If as I believe we have a slight tech lead a few turns of 70 % tax will not hurt us , our President could confirm this with embassies.
Rather than put the gold directly to rushbuy Mikes we should buy up camels in a number of cities and use camels for the wonder.

These are the views of Hydey foreign minister

	09-04-2002 16:20									#3
	Re: Foreign Ministers veiw Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Hydey if other civs have no techs that we don't have there is nothing to swap for so there is no point in asking to exchange techs if they have nothing to give.

It wouldn't hurt trying(I'm not saying I'll GIVE them something only exchange if they have something worthwhile)

quote: Rather than put the gold directly to rushbuy Mikes we should buy up camels in a number of cities and use camels for the wonder. These are the views of Hydey foreign minister

I'll take a look wich is most cheap at the time.

thx for the advice Hydey
Shade

	09-04-2002 17:16									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Rush-build the caravans, not the WoW!!!

	09-04-2002 18:07									#5
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Rush-building either the Caravans themselves or Mike's directly is going to cost hundreds of gold (700, 800, 900?). Moving the tax rate to the maximum is only going to gain us about 25 per turn (for about 35 total per turn).

The only difference in this plan and the regular process is a (very) few gold pieces per turn. We can't increase the tax rate until we get Monotheism after 3 more turns anyway (in other words, the 4th tax turn from now).

You rush-build a Caravan just starting out (as several are) and it will cost 200 gold after they have about 4 shields.

Mainly, it's about the same any way we build it. I'm not saying trying this will do any particular harm, just not a whole lot of good.

	09-04-2002 18:41									#6
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Incremental rush-buying camels cost ~2.5g/shield. Rush buying the whole unit costs ~4g/shield. If you rushbuy, rush buy the caravans, NOT the wonder. We have boats to ferry the new caravans to Sodaq. IIRC, we only need 3 more to almost complete the wonder.

	09-04-2002 18:43									#7
	Re: maps Get a bigger avatar today!

The AI knows the entire map, even if they've never sent a unit out to explore. We may as well trade maps if they are willing. They gain nothing, we gain more geography.

	09-04-2002 18:48									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by cavebear Rush-building either the Caravans themselves or Mike's directly is going to cost hundreds of gold (700, 800, 900?). Moving the tax rate to the maximum is only going to gain us about 25 per turn (for about 35 total per turn).

I just took a look at the game--> rushbuilding Mikes itself is out of the question.It would at least cost us 500G if not more using all the caravans we have.
some numbers:
at this moment there are 66 shield build(we need 400) and the speed of the city is 6 shields/turn
we have 3 caravans ready and 2 very close which are almost complete with 100G they could both be completed entirely.
So we can be sure of >300 shields by the time we can start mikes.
Then rsh another caravan or 2 and finished.
(estimated costs ~200G)

Shade

	09-04-2002 20:10									#9
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I'm intrigued, and slightly mystified, to see that at the time of this posting (9 voters), each individual aspect of the plan is winning its respective sub-poll, yet the "entire plan" option is only drawing with "no way!"

	09-04-2002 20:27									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think it's caused by the caravans...

Shade

	09-04-2002 22:55									#11
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WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CAMELS!!!

	09-04-2002 23:40									#12
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Incremental rush-buying camels cost ~2.5g/shield. Rush buying the whole unit costs ~4g/shield. If you rushbuy, rush buy the caravans, NOT the wonder. We have boats to ferry the new caravans to Sodaq. IIRC, we only need 3 more to almost complete the wonder.

Buying a Caravan (50 shields) whole costs 450 gold (9 gold/shield). And it makes a great deal of difference how many shields you have when you buy. The cost/shield is not at all uniform. Just having 4 shields will cut the cost in half, to about 200 gold. But having 25 shields, it still costs over about 50 gold.

	10-04-2002 00:34									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by shade I just took a look at the game--> rushbuilding Mikes itself is out of the question.It would at least cost us 500G if not more using all the caravans we have. some numbers: at this moment there are 66 shield build(we need 400) and the speed of the city is 6 shields/turn we have 3 caravans ready and 2 very close which are almost complete with 100G they could both be completed entirely. So we can be sure of >300 shields by the time we can start mikes. Then rsh another caravan or 2 and finished. (estimated costs ~200G) Shade

That's about the same as I figured. And it should take 8 turns if I'm counting things correctly. The problem is those very last shields (bought or Caravan). I suggest changing Paha to build a Caravan. Those other places building Caravan number 8 are very slow and several turns away in travel. Paha will surpass them in shields (4/turn) and is nearer.

	10-04-2002 00:44									#14
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We obviously can't afford to rushbuy the entire wonder, and so I agree with what many are saying.

Rush the caravans, and hopefully that will make the difference.

Another plan, one which I use occaisionalli is to store up fifteen or twenty caravans in a very productive city, and use them to get wonders in a single turn. It works very well, and doesn't use up a cities production for many turns. I think we should try and implement this (somewhat) in our current situation.

Steele

	10-04-2002 04:27									#15
	Support Apolyton

<< Waiting for IW to insist on the caravans getting separate grazing areas, one communal grazing area and weekends off >>

All of us must serve Apolytonia in our own way, IW. And for camels, THAT MEANS SACRIFICING THEIR MEASLY LIFEFORMS FOR THE GREATER GOOD, SO THAT WE CAN SACRIFICE FUTURE GENERATIONS FOR GREAT TASKS! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

The one part of the scheme I don't agree with is the tax rate increase. It worried me to begin with, but if cavebear is right then it will do little for us.

	10-04-2002 06:52									#16
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My concern with the tax rate increase is mostly that it is not much of a gain and I didn't want people to think it would get us to Mike's in 3 turns instead of 8 or 9. Our route to Mike's is about the same, tax rate change or not.

We can't even *start* the proposed tax rate change until we get Monotheism, because that would change our research rate from the current 12 (with 3 turns to completion) to 24 (with 15 turns to compeletion).

But all that aside, I support getting Mike's as quickly as possible by almost any means. We are so limited by having numerous workers stuck as entertainers, and many cities producing only 1 or 2 usable shields that I would disband some Warriors and even Triremes into Sodaq to speed Mike's up by a couple of turns.

We are living off of Martial Law. That causes us to have Warriors of little value eating up shield production and it prevents us from constructing valuable long-term benefits like Libraries and Marketplaces that can increase our gold and tech discovery.

I want us to be able to afford Elephants and Legions, not Warriors. Eliminating unhappiness with Mike's is step 1 on the path to that, so that is my priority. After that, I'll build you Dips and trading Caravans and Libraries where they produce the most benefits.

The better to overcome our enemies...

	10-04-2002 08:15									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The extra tax money won't rushbuild Mike's but it can rush build caravans...

Me love the Grand Plan.

	10-04-2002 16:26									#18
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Rushbuilding half-built caravans is the best way, as a caravan jioning a WoW = 200g of rushbuilding directly the Wow.
But let'us avoid to break research effort.

	10-04-2002 16:28									#19
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quote: We are living off of Martial Law. That causes us to have Warriors of little value eating up shield production and it prevents us from constructing valuable long-term benefits like Libraries and Marketplaces that can increase our gold and tech discovery.

first 3 units are free of support...(this is also one of the reasons why I will oppose every suggestion to change to republic).
As soon as the happiness problem is solved we can start upgrading units(warriors) to elephants and such OR soething wich is even better: start building caravans and store them and aim our science toward invention so we can get Leo's in 1 turn and autoupgrade those warriors to whatever
(from zero to hero )

Shade

	10-04-2002 20:43									#20
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quote: Originally posted by shade first 3 units are free of support...(this is also one of the reasons why I will oppose every suggestion to change to republic). As soon as the happiness problem is solved we can start upgrading units(warriors) to elephants and such OR soething wich is even better: start building caravans and store them and aim our science toward invention so we can get Leo's in 1 turn and autoupgrade those warriors to whatever (from zero to hero ) Shade

Yes, the first 3 are free under Monarchy (and I agree completely about not going to Republic, we would go negative on shields in most cities). But when a city is only producing 3 shields and 2 of them are going to military units #4 and #5, it sure slows down production.

If we get Leo's anytime soon, it will be nice to see the cheap little Warriors become big bad Pikesmen and Crusaders, but it's costing us to keep them around.

	10-04-2002 21:00									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

don't worry no-one has dared to attack us yet(except barbs)...

Shade

	11-04-2002 03:14									#22
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I thought that we´ve been attacked by the babylonians also

	11-04-2002 03:18									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Shaka Naldur I thought that we´ve been attacked by the babylonians also

oeps ,yup they sank one of their tririmes when they attacked us...(It was far from our territory and we had only little damage(yellow) maybe that's why I forgot)

btw I've send message to all(except trade) advisors to send me their reports by friday(I hope El Awrence sees this because I couldn't send him a message,inbox is full)

Shade

	11-04-2002 04:31									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I wasn't worried about being attacked. The President and War Advisor seem to have things well in hand. I'm worried about our pathetic shield production.

That *is* my job, right?

	11-04-2002 04:32									#25
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OK, rush the caravans.