10-04-2002 05:26									#1
	Why CTP2 is the best civ so far Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

IMHO

Graphics are the best i've seen in any TBS game, and that includes Civ3. The terrain tiles have a better developed symetry, i think the mountains in Civ3 look weird. The shades of colours used are balanced, although i'd like a 'between' colour for plains/grassland - the yellow of the plains contrasts a bit too much with the green of the grassland. Everything else is nicely done, the sea/mountain/desert/swamp, all of them really make the terrain in CTP2 look very believable.
The units are well animated and detailed (if only it was easy to make more and have a catalogue of civ specific units ).
The sounds and music are great(maybe CTP1 music is more varied and IMHO slighty better), and i often have both CTP1+2 cd's playing on my stereo while i play the game, it really sets the game nicely.
Tech-Tree is large and comprehensive, in all the versions(Mods included) and makes nearly perfect sense(and is way better/bigger than in any other game of this type).
The Civillopedia says it all really, this game has more of just about everything you could want, making for a much more detailed and mostly a more strategic game(there are balance imperfections - no diamond is perfect either!).
The interface i've never had a problem with, in some ways it is better than CTP1, and in some ways it isn't. Still for the most part it does it's job well(maybe there is a little too much repeted information - i mean how many ways do you need to see what your cities are building?). It looks nice compared to most windows type formats, and once i had spent 10mins learning the basic's it was very simple to get the info i wanted.
Warfare still has the best(most believable)representation of the genre. 'Civ' was never a pure war game - play 'Operation flashpoint' or any of the SSI old-style wargames if thats what you want. Still CTP2 kicks the pants off anything in its field.Its had 'Stacks' and combined arms combat for how long now?And i don't often find myself with strange combat results.
Choices. What civ would you like to be?Some critisised the civs on offer, i was happy i could play as a welsh-man.More choices don't a bad game make.
Customisation is key. If you don't like it change it. And some did with great results. It may not be easy for us non-programers, but it's very possible and if you ask nicely for a particular feature, it's great knowing there are people here who will do their best to help out. Even my lame efforts at trying to bring the best out of this 'civ' game have been recieved with enthusiasm and help.
Potential is the main word i think of when i try to sum up CTP2. Don't get me wrong, this game is good now what with the mods and ongoing work. It just has the potential to be really great - the best all encompassing civ game of them all. I'm sure with all the spit and polish the community can bring to it over the coming years we will get that near perfect diamond. The sooner the better. So lets continue to fight the good fight of SLIC(it scares the hell out of me )

	10-04-2002 05:46									#2
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Not to mention that CTP2 is MULTIPLAYABLE and Civ3 is not.

	10-04-2002 08:06									#3
	Support Apolyton

Because CTP2 started bad and we upgrade it to be the best.
And we will continue upgrading it to continue being the best.

	10-04-2002 08:11									#4
	Re: Why CTP2 is the best civ so far Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor (if only it was easy to make more and have a catalogue of civ specific units ).

Once Locutus gave me a code of how to make units civ-specific. You will be surprise seeing how simple it is.
And dont forget the Elite Units (they are kind of a random civ-specific).

	10-04-2002 23:37									#5
	Re: Re: Why CTP2 is the best civ so far Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn Once Locutus gave me a code of how to make units civ-specific. You will be surprise seeing how simple it is. And dont forget the Elite Units (they are kind of a random civ-specific).

I was thinking of a very detailed libary of sprites - i don't think we have over 100 or so from both games(?). So detailed that each civ had it's counterpart unit e.g. Lonbow Archer - English/Bushido Archer - Japan/Compositebow - Persia(?)/BlackPalm bow - Polynesia. That kind of thing, so a whole heap of sprites would need to be created. It would be great for all the scenario creators as well as the Modders. I've gotten hold of a 3D package recently(Cinema 4D) but i'm putting off looking into sprite creation as i don't think i'll really have the time(with work and real life and Apolyton/playing CTP2)and it looks quite complicated(read through the activision stuff ), still i like to dream
Still I just don't get how so few people appriciate this game, although its nice to see all the new people(myself included) over here, having played ALL(more or less) the tbs/strategy games released since the early 80's - i feel i do know a good one when it bites me on the nose! CTP2 rocks........and can only get better

	11-04-2002 00:07									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Actually, with the existing CTP1/CTP2 sprites, there is an easy way to double/triple the number of units in your game.

I used the existing sprites from the game, and then designated the differences for a player by changing the background of the tga files. So all of my Wonder-created Leader tgas have a purple background, and all of my Militia units have a red background.

Using this method, a player can, for instance, specify a whole series of different Archer units - the only difficulty would be for a player to see exacty what he is up against. Still, this does add a dose of uncertainty to the game, which is not a bad thing either.

	11-04-2002 00:57									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks Hexagonian,
Yes i liked this feature of Craddle alot. So is it possible to have each civ designated a different colour via the tga's(use the same background as their civ's colour?) and have different attributes for each civ's unit type? As i'm interested how many different unit sprites can CTP2 handle in one game(I know about the building limit - Locutus told me), would it actually be possible to have different unit sprites for each civ?

	11-04-2002 01:29									#8
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Thanks Hexagonian, Yes i liked this feature of Craddle alot. So is it possible to have each civ designated a different colour via the tga's(use the same background as their civ's colour?) and have different attributes for each civ's unit type? As i'm interested how many different unit sprites can CTP2 handle in one game(I know about the building limit - Locutus told me), would it actually be possible to have different unit sprites for each civ?

Personally I wouldn't like this at all (one of the core ideas of Civ is IMHO that all civs start out equally - I hate Civ3 for not respecting this) and it would be an incredible amount of work to implement, but regardless, that wouldn't be possible. Although the number of unit types you can have is unlimited, the number of unit sprite IDs that the game accepts is only 200 (So you can have more units but they would have to recycle existing sprites).

	11-04-2002 02:22									#9
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Hmmmm........i think i wasn't too clear. I too hate the idea of civ specificness. Its one of my bugbears with the AOE games, and one of the things i have against Civ3.
And yes i think it has to be central to the civ idea that you all start the same.
I think i was more intrested in if it could be done, just to see what parameters the use of sprites has in CTP2. What i would like is a greater selection of sprites in the game in general, if they could be civ specific that would be great(Mongol cavelry archers vs normal(european) ones). It would be just to add that lick of identity to your civ(but yes keep values the same).
Still it would give flexibility in particular scenarios, if Hexagonian's method did work to overcome a set limit(200 in this case), then all these WWII mods/scenario's etc could really go to town with their Tiger tanks vs rubbish british ones(and have stats to reflect that).
IMHO i think that in certain circumstances(mainly very specific scenarios) different unit attributes can add to the game.
In CTP2 the game, i think it would diminish the feeling that you can create your civ as you want it to be, on a level playing field(more or less). Anyway at least i know the sprite limit now (let me just count all the units in all the mods!).

	11-04-2002 02:44									#10
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I think 200 sprites is plenty: as Brian Reynolds said: "less is more" . Although it's always nice to have the ability to add more when it's needed, 200 sprites is good enough if you ask me. The extra bit of identity could come from Elite units, Government-specific units, etc, as the current mods already give us. In this respect you could add a lot of extra units without violating the "less is more" rule too much but even then I think a total of 200 units should be enough. Identical units with different graphics would also do this but is an *incredible* amount of work while adding fairly little to the game. It would have been nice if it had been possible, but I'm not complaining because it isn't...
I can't imagine any WWII (or other) scenario with more than 200 unit types 40 Tanks, 40 Aircraft, 40 Infantry types, 40 Ships, 40 Misc units (missiles, diplomats, cavalry, etc), would you really want even more?
But yes, for scenarios civ-specifc properties are fine with me, civs almost by definition don't start out equally then.

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor (let me just count all the units in all the mods!).

Probably about 150, so like I said, 200 is plenty...

	11-04-2002 22:35									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Although the number of unit types you can have is unlimited, the number of unit sprite IDs that the game accepts is only 200 (So you can have more units but they would have to recycle existing sprites).

IIRC than there is a way to access the one hundret more CTP1 sprites over the spriteID.txt. So in total 300 unit sprites 200 good sprites, 200 city sprites and 200 special effect sprites and the maybe 200 projectile sprites (don't know if they could be used in CTP1 but the sprite tool can create them).

-Martin

	12-04-2002 00:01									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor What i would like is a greater selection of sprites in the game in general, if they could be civ specific that would be great(Mongol cavelry archers vs normal(european) ones). It would be just to add that lick of identity to your civ(but yes keep values the same).

One thing to remember is that there is a complete set of CTP1 sprites that are useable - in effect it almost doubles the current CTP2 sprite database. All in all there probably is close to 200-225 sprites/units available in some form for the Modder. The problem comes up when a Modder wants to focus on a small timeframe where he wants to use a large set of similar units (using 12 various tank-types in a WW2 scenario, for example) and there are only 4 Tank sprites that have to go around.

My method would work toward taking what is currently available and using it - rather than going through the effort of creating new sprites, which can take a lot of effort. Since CTP2's release, there have been relatively few high-quality sprites created (with animation, death scenes and so forth) The only ones that come to mind are the Zulu warrior and the Chariot sprites. The other CTP2 unit sprites were not animated and all of the others in the Mods were pickups from either the CTP1 or CTP1 fan-created database.

The means to create a set of civ-specific units (and having those color-coded to the civ, no less) within the game would have to come through SLIC coding. For instance, is the color of a civ always standard from a random generated game? I do not think so, given the fact that the human player is aways blue. So from that standpoint alone, using my method to color-code units to tie into the player color will not work, or is a lot of work for little payoff. However this can be accomplished in a preset scenario in a limited fashion given that in the Alexander scenario, certain civs have certain units (Darius for Persia, for example)

I had given some thought to having civ-specific units in the past for Cradle, but ended up not pursuing it because the work needed to pull it off seemed much greater than the payoff. MedMod uses a set of elite-style units that become available, based on a randomizer/enable age, which is a nice feature.

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Still it would give flexibility in particular scenarios, if Hexagonian's method did work to overcome a set limit(200 in this case), then all these WWII mods/scenario's etc could really go to town with their Tiger tanks vs rubbish british ones(and have stats to reflect that).

200 is a lot of units when you think of it - (Cradle currently has about 120). Anyhow, with a bit of creativity, this is what Modders can come up with in regard to using what is available. I hope this sparks some ideas. See below for sample...

	12-04-2002 19:13									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

Actually, 200 units is far ok for scenarios and mods in scenario format but opposily they are far too few for mods in modswapper formats. Since most of this numbers are already taken. Actually until 175 by CTP1, WW2, Apolyton, BlueO and Tom Davies units. Not to mention that medmod already took the number 198 and 199 with some naval units. So this leaves 23 empty spaces that will be probably taken by in future mods.
I even see this limited factor to being the back to scenario format for the future mods.

We have to solve this soo. Or there will be some mod incopatibilities as there were between medmod/Craddle at the beggining.
Maybe even limiting the number of some BlueO's units will be needed since those arent used by the mods at all and to actually define wich of his units will grab each one of the 25 numbers reserved. Eg. numbers 139, 140 and 141 were taken by his cybernetic units in my absolute state mod. Respectively 139 the CTP1 war walker-like, 140 by his Infantry-like, and 141 by his veritech fighter.
And future mods have to be asked wich ones of the 23 space the grab and add it to the list found in Hexagonias guide.

Last edited by Pedrunn on 12-04-2002 at 19:24

	13-04-2002 00:09									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian I do not think so, given the fact that the human player is aways blue. So from that standpoint alone, using my method to color-code units to tie into the player color will not work, or is a lot of work for little payoff.

And I thought player 1 is always red at least that is the case in my games.

For the sprites numbers 300 is possible if you overwrite all of the CTP1 as the CTP1 ones are in the format of GUXX.spr and in comparision to the CTP2 format GUXXX.spr. I think it is a bug that there are not more sprites numbers available as CTP2 regocnize numbers over 199 as GU00.spr as number and not as something else.

-Martin

	13-04-2002 02:33									#15
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Anyhow, with a bit of creativity, this is what Modders can come up with in regard to using what is available. I hope this sparks some ideas. See below for sample...

Nice pics Hexagonian! these can be used in the great library information database as well as the army unit icons right?
And yes i like the elite unit concept in med mod too - it seems well balanced enough(I never seem to get too huge an advantage out of it) and adds a bit of flavour/personality to my civ - any chance of a craddle version . One question i'd like to know the answer to - do you (and the other modders) like CTP2 mainly because of the fact that you can mod it or do you rate it as a game as well? I know we are all fans of the game (else we wouldn't be here), but as a lot of you guys(modders) are either studying a computer language or are programmers, is that the main reason for your devotion and hardwork to the game?

Martin, i'm always blue too - like Hexagonian? Have you changed your colour somehow(or maybe you have a german version?)

	13-04-2002 04:11									#16
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Martin has modded colors00.txt so whenever he posts screenshots everyone can stand in awe of the barbarians.

	13-04-2002 05:03									#17
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor but as a lot of you guys(modders) are either studying a computer language or are programmers, is that the main reason for your devotion and hardwork to the game?

Actually, I think Dale, Martin the Dane and I (and maybe Martin Gühmann, not sure) are the only ones with an IT background...

Martin,
Does that technique of using CtP1 sprites actually work in the game? I don't think I ever saw it in action...

	13-04-2002 05:10									#18
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Actually, I think Dale, Martin the Dane and I (and maybe Martin Gühmann, not sure) are the only ones with an IT background...

I just got an IT foreground Maybe.

	13-04-2002 16:19									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Martin has modded colors00.txt so whenever he posts screenshots everyone can stand in awe of the barbarians.

And I thought the Barbarian red is sligtly different from my one, that reminds me that I always wanted to change the Barbarian color to black again.

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Martin, Does that technique of using CtP1 sprites actually work in the game? I don't think I ever saw it in action...

Unfortunatly I just picked up this information from the forum and never tried it on my own. So I just tested it outcommanded the fusion tank entry in newssprite.txt and got a database error, and as I tried to place a fusion tank on the map CTP2 crashed so as long as we don't crack the ctp2.exe there are only 200 unit sprites available. Although it looks that the system is thought for a lot of more numbers.

-Martin

	13-04-2002 16:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Nice pics Hexagonian! these can be used in the great library information database as well as the army unit icons right?

The nice thing about this is that the system does work in terms of differentiaton of units within the context of gameplay, because the name/stats of a unit are also posted next to the unit.

A modder can also use stars (or numbers) within the tga graphic as a quick visual to tell the player the level of that unit too. So your highest level tank that you can research in the game can have 5 stars, a less-powerful one can have 4, and so forth.

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor And yes i like the elite unit concept in med mod too - it seems well balanced enough(I never seem to get too huge an advantage out of it) and adds a bit of flavour/personality to my civ - any chance of a craddle version .

I'll have to think on that a bit...

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor One question i'd like to know the answer to - do you (and the other modders) like CTP2 mainly because of the fact that you can mod it or do you rate it as a game as well? I know we are all fans of the game (else we wouldn't be here), but as a lot of you guys(modders) are either studying a computer language or are programmers, is that the main reason for your devotion and hardwork to the game?

I like the game so much because of the fact that I can tweak files - and I prefer many of the basic elements (PW, interface, tech tree, unconventionals) over the Sid civ series. If CTP2 was as hard to Mod as civ3 is proving to be, I wouldn't be playing it now.

No computer language study whatsoever. I picked up everything (the modding process) here! (and I depend on the SLICers)

I'm a graphic artist.

	17-04-2002 03:32									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanks for the insight guys.
Hexagonian, on the unit graphic thing - have you played 'Shogun TotalWar'? I think the way it handles army information is done very well, little graphical symbols to represent unit types within an army standard, i guess we have got alot less room to play with in CTP2. Oh yeah i've got a copy of Maxxon Cinema 4d se(for free and i know its not a great package), would it be good enough to play around with/create sprites for CTP2? just wondering - i've got Photoshop 6 and i can borrow a friends illistrator, enough for the task at hand?(beginner level)

IW ref IT foreground the wonder of youth ehh?(my mind is getting murkier on the matter!)

Oh yeah and as i see it at present CTP2 has 3 very good Mods (and i've yet to try Martins Good Mod )

in no particular order:

1.MedMod
2.Craddle
3.WAW

WAW being the newest and from first impressions the most aggressive.
Lots of good stuff with Wonders, Peter's Diplomod in for running repairs and tweaks. Loads of new scenario's being worked on, and new people giving it a go to! Yeah i think i'm as near as right with the title of this thread - i haven't had as much fun with a single game in....oh.....ages
CTP2...........historic turn based strategies best kept secret!(as someone said,somewhere)

	17-04-2002 19:51									#22
	Remove this text

quote: CoT wrote: Oh yeah and as i see it at present CTP2 has 3 very good Mods (and i've yet to try Martins Good Mod )

Actually, I think you have, as GoodMod is largely contained in Cradle and MedMod.

	18-04-2002 18:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard Actually, I think you have, as GoodMod is largely contained in Cradle and MedMod.

The Goods and the graphics are a part of Cradle, only the script is part of MedPack2 and of course all the other slic mods that are compartible for the original game are in both mods. GoodMod for Apolyton Pack contains an improved AI in comparision to the Apolyton Pack AI, it is now hard to catch up for the human in science. And fill the map with cities, because the AI is now very strong in founding cities.

-Martin