10-04-2002 08:29									#1
	Too fast! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Oh ! my god.
I cant follow CTP2 forum anymore. It is just becaming too fast. Too many posts at once. I dont participate in such a forum since i was a civ3 enthusiastic when there were just 2 civ3 forums (i know, a long time ago)
I cant be happier for such growth of my favorite game.
But i am going crazy!
I just post something and when i atualized several threads had go up again. Even the ones i just read.
I remind the time of crisis here at CTP2 when there were only about 10 people (Modders mostly) here and post were a rarity (only 2-3 a day).
Nostalgy?
No! It is much better now
Fast!
Fast!
Fast!
Brainstorm. Too much info. Everything is getting fuzzy. now black ......

	10-04-2002 08:54									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hm, true, sometimes things are going sooooo fast in here.

But then, sometimes, I keep coming back here over and over to see if somebody replied on my threads, but nothing happened.

Guess, I still have to find the right time when most of the people are online ...

But, if I have a look at where everybody is from, I must say it is quite a diversified group, from all over the world !

Is there a thread or something somewhere with a list of how many regulars are from which country ??

Just to have an overview of all the countries represented here ?

	10-04-2002 15:04									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Eagle:

I'm from Melbourne Australia. Have been coming to Apolyton since about 1999, but didn't register till 2000. I've played Civ, Civ2, Smac, Smacx, Ctp, Ctp2 & Civ3 as well as many many other games. Ctp2 is the best in my mind.

	10-04-2002 15:23									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Dale,

Then you should be online around the same time as me. I am from Belgium, but am living in Singapore.

Only recently discovered Apolyton, but been addicted to Civ type games since way before they were invented.

	10-04-2002 16:02									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Eagle:

You mean about now? But I usually surf from work all day. I hate my job, actively looking for another job, work knows all this, so they let me surf. I do a little bit of work for them.

	10-04-2002 16:38									#7
	Suffering from ads?

Well, I am on holiday for the moment, so am behind my pc also all the time.

Euh, for those that find this strange, for my job I rarely touch a pc, so it's hobby for me.

I pity those that are still on dialup following everything here or dwnldn things. I would never be able to fall back to anything less than cable. Well, that is if I am not doing my email via portable and mobile at 9600bps ... But that's only when I'm not home.

PS What field are you looking in for yr new job ?
Why not try yr luck in S'pore ?

Last edited by Eagle on 10-04-2002 at 16:59

	10-04-2002 19:20									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I live outside of Chicago, and am fortunate enough to have Internet access at work, so it is easy for me to come here during the day and check up on what is happening. And I have not been too busy at work lately, so I log on here a lot during the day.

The evenings/weekends, however, are a different story. I generally avoid going online during those times, unless I know something interesting is happening. And I have limited Internet access at home (10 free hours a month through NetZero, which is usually used up by my son anyhow).

Someday I'll break down and start paying for unlimited access...

Things are definitely more lively around here though.

	10-04-2002 20:19									#9
	Re:Too Fast Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn Oh ! my god. I cant follow CTP2 forum anymore. It is just becaming too fast. Too many posts at once. I dont participate in such a forum since i was a civ3 enthusiastic when there were just 2 civ3 forums (i know, a long time ago) I cant be happier for such growth of my favorite game. But i am going crazy! I just post something and when i atualized several threads had go up again. Even the ones i just read. I remind the time of crisis here at CTP2 when there were only about 10 people (Modders mostly) here and post were a rarity (only 2-3 a day). Nostalgy? No! It is much better now Fast! Fast! Fast! Brainstorm. Too much info. Everything is getting fuzzy. now black ......

Than you should have been here around Easter, there it wasn't so full here the same as last year but after Ester last year the forum was much emptier than before and now the other way around, the community has put a lot of work into this game and it becomes better and better, also thanks to the programmers of Activision the game is so customizable that it would be just a waste to not try to get the best out of CTP2.

-Martin

	10-04-2002 21:03									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Well, maybe it was easily said of me about having cable. I have no idea how prizes compare in different countries.

In Belgium, or here in Singapore, you pay around S$55 a month to have unlimited cable access. There are other chepaer formulas available while still on cable or adsl, but then you are limited in time or GB's. Since I am playing internet radio most of the day, that wasn't an option for me.

	10-04-2002 22:45									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, for all practical purposes, I live in Los Angeles, California.
I have internet access at work and at home, but use the work computer for the bulk of my surfing, purely because I have a dial up at home and its much, much faster at work. I check in here from time to time to see what's going on, although the past few days I've been going through some of the very old posts (a year, two years ago) because back then *everyone* was a newbie and there's lots of information/tips/strategy helpful to those who are relatively new to the game now .... that is if you have the patience to weed through tons of "Activision sucks!" and "the AI is stupid!" posts to find the helpful stuff. Man there was a *lot* of hate toward this game in those days, I'm so glad I found it after the ModMasters fixed it.

	10-04-2002 22:56									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal Well, for all practical purposes, I live in Los Angeles, California. I have internet access at work and at home, but use the work computer for the bulk of my surfing, purely because I have a dial up at home and its much, much faster at work. I check in here from time to time to see what's going on, although the past few days I've been going through some of the very old posts (a year, two years ago) because back then *everyone* was a newbie and there's lots of information/tips/strategy helpful to those who are relatively new to the game now .... that is if you have the patience to weed through tons of "Activision sucks!" and "the AI is stupid!" posts to find the helpful stuff. Man there was a *lot* of hate toward this game in those days, I'm so glad I found it after the ModMasters fixed it.

Sounds familiar just go to the Civ3 forum of the present, and you can replace the names of Civ3 and Firaxis by some others and you wouldn't notice a huge different. Unfortunatly there is no Civ4 on the horizon for all the hopes so it is better to be realistic.

-Martin

	11-04-2002 00:05									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Right now I'm balking at paying $50/month for cable modem access at home...but I have a fractional T-1 at the office for downloads (and, um, "daytime" visits to Apolyton).

	11-04-2002 04:20									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal: .... that is if you have the patience to weed through tons of "Activision sucks!" and "the AI is stupid!" posts to find the helpful stuff. Man there was a *lot* of hate toward this game in those days

And look at it now:

quote: Originally posted by Alexnm: Yep, I have to agree on this. Poly CTP2 forums are one of the most civilized places I have ever seen. It is almost like travelling to Switzerland.

I don't think that 'hate' is necessarily the best word. There's plenty of immature people out there. When one of my sons was about 2 or 3, he got so mad at something that he grabbed a box of cornflakes, poured them on the floor, and started jumping up and down on them. As I recall, some of the flamers who were posting last year reminded me of this.

OTOH, if you've come across the Richard Myers' thread in the Creation Forum (he's the guy that did the AI for CTP2):

quote: Richard: Thanks for the questions Wes! Some of that negative stuff on the boards does sting, but in general I take it all with a grain of salt. I know that people wouldn't be so upset if 1) they didn't like the game to some degree, otherwise they wouldn't care and 2) there wasn't some grain of truth to their complaint.

It's undeniable that the original game was too easy. (I have a theory about why it was - and it applys to why so many people are complaining about Civ3's AI - but that's for another thread.) I think that's probably the main reason why people like the Mods so much, they make the game more difficult.

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal: I'm so glad I found it after the ModMasters fixed it.

IMO, the Fat Lady hasn't sung yet.

	11-04-2002 04:26									#15
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs IMO, the Fat Lady hasn't sung yet.

She's busy with Civ3.

	11-04-2002 17:57									#16
	Re: Re:Too Fast Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Than you should have been here around Easter, there it wasn't so full here the same as last year but after Ester last year the forum was much emptier than before and now the other way around,

I was here last year until octuber and i do remind being really bad. Easter was worse !?!
We did a great work didnt we?

	18-04-2002 02:43									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs It's undeniable that the original game was too easy. (I have a theory about why it was - and it applys to why so many people are complaining about Civ3's AI - but that's for another thread.) I think that's probably the main reason why people like the Mods so much, they make the game more difficult. IMO, the Fat Lady hasn't sung yet.

I meant to get back to this thread sometime ago. I am interested in what your (or anyone's) theory on why the original AI was too easy (and even by my very limited experience, it was fairly easy). My guess would be that for most people, the ones who are not showing up here with tons of game experience, the AI was not easy at all. That combined with the fact that most people don't like to play a game they can't beat, so they made it beatable.

	19-04-2002 20:42									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal I meant to get back to this thread sometime ago. I am interested in what your (or anyone's) theory on why the original AI was too easy (and even by my very limited experience, it was fairly easy). My guess would be that for most people, the ones who are not showing up here with tons of game experience, the AI was not easy at all. That combined with the fact that most people don't like to play a game they can't beat, so they made it beatable.

Not theory, simply fact: it is very, very hard to design AI code that can challenge experienced players, especially experienced players who share tips on strategy, tactics, and exploits. The customary "solution" is for the AI to cheat. It's still stupid, but it's stupid and dangerous because it has lots of units, lots of cities, and lots of development...and usually because the AI is programmed to treat the human as utterly untrustworthy ( moi? ) and to preferentially attack human civilizations.

So the Frenzy mod made the AI much more dangerous, and many of the mods give the AI more units, more tile improvements, and so forth, and many try to make the AI seem more intelligent and less artificial.

There's another major factor: the designers can't possibly anticipate all the techniques that good players use. The designers of CTP2 called the top level "Impossible," but it turned out to be roughly equivalent to "Prince" in Civ2. The designers of Civ2 apparently didn't know if "Deity" could be beaten, and it could be beaten with only one city, and even with only one city with never more than one population.

Damn. These guys are GOOD.

Then there are other critical factors: the developers have a limited budget, and top-level AI programmers are very expensive and very busy. Further, the developers are under enormous pressure to get the product out the door where it can generate revenue for the company. So there isn't enough money, and there isn't enough time to make the AI truly challenging without cheating.

Ever consider the dollars, hours, and dedicated computer resources required for Deep Blue? Remember that the rules of chess are exceedingly simple: only 6 unit types, each with a single movement pattern and a single attack pattern, and only two "special abilities:" castling and pawn promotion. Further, there are absolutely no random elements, information is complete, and there is NO interaction or diplomacy of any sort. These last three are why it is much harder to write a strong program to play bridge than chess.

-- Hermann

	19-04-2002 22:16									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Excellent analysis, Hermann You hit the nail on the head.

	19-04-2002 22:22									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

Always interesting to get the view points of people well versed in these matters.

Danke.

	20-04-2002 06:12									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Pedrunn is right things have picked up quite a bit around here. Personally, I consider that a good thing though. Does anyone else remember when we were lucky to get a handful of posts a week?
I'll take to fast over to slow any day.

	20-04-2002 06:48									#22
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

amen

	23-04-2002 03:08									#23
	Got spare money?

TheArsenal,

This might be totally off the wall, but I've always had the suspicion that one of the main reasons why CTP2's AI is 'easy' is the new Diplomatic Victory condition. When I first heard about this I remember thinking "That's a good idea", but now with hindsight I don't think it was.

I suspect that in order to allow for the very possibility of a diplomatic victory, the AI programmer was forced to give the Human player too much control (by his proposals) over his enemy's regard and trust levels. I don't know whether you know this, but in the game every player maintains a regard level and a trust level towards every other player. These levels are affected by what diplomatic proposals you make to an AI player and what treaties you have with him (amongst other things). So, for example, when you give him gold he likes it and his regard level towards you goes up. Since it's the regard levels that determine what goals the AI players pursue against you (e.g., whether or not they'll launch slave raids against you) and, I think, ultimately when they want to go to war with you, this makes it too easy for the Human player to be in control of the entire game situation and leads to the complaints "The AI's not aggressive." And even if the Human player doesn't actively pursue a policy of pacifying potential enemies, like I say in order to allow for the possibility of a diplomatic victory the regard/trust mechanism got skewed too much in the 'friendly' direction.

I expect the programmers thought of this. There's a "DesireWarWith" flag which is probably somehow keyed to the personality of the AI civ's leader and which may be part of a system that was intended to make things more difficult for the Human. But this is more idle speculation because I've never been able to figure out what determines this flag.

quote: My guess would be that for most people, the ones who are not showing up here with tons of game experience, the AI was not easy at all. That combined with the fact that most people don't like to play a game they can't beat, so they made it beatable.

Hard to say how difficult 'the silent majority' found the game. All I know is that in the past year or so of brousing both here and at Civfanatics, it's the complaint I recall hearing over and over. Mind you my memory might be a bit selective here: as a result of CTP2, I've developed an obsessive interest in Artificial Intelligence in computer gaming.

As for "they made it beatable", I suspect you're right on there. The more I learn about how CTP2's AI works, the more impressed I am. I'm sure that they could have made it much more difficult, in ways better and more subtle than anything we've been able to come up with here.


Peter