11-04-2002 03:13									#31
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what Imran said

	11-04-2002 04:14									#32
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The Europeans started this whole mess by persecuting the Jews clean out of Europe. I propose that the Europeans clean up their mess by having each 50 to 100 citizens of Europe (the EU + Eastern Europe + Russia) adopt one Israeli or Palestinian. It would be up to this group to see to the welfare of their charge, and to restrain him (or her) whenever necessary. Such an action on the part of the Europeans will surely earn them the love and respect of the rest of the world, particularily the muslim parts. Who knows it could be the beginning of European hegemony over the whole world.

	11-04-2002 05:58									#33
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Good one Strangelove

Have the Israelis ever considered giving the WB back to Jordan-Gaza back to Egypt-Golan back to Syria-Lebonan?

Then the arabs could fight it out amongst themselves.
Question is would these countries even want these troublemakers back?

	11-04-2002 07:02									#34
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"Question is would these countries even want these troublemakers back?"

Probably not, it would be too bad for the economy. Ideally, Israel and Palestine would be together, as one binational, secular, democratic state. That won't happen however. What needs to happen is for the west to come in with a strong arm and impose a peace. Both parties in this case cannot come to terms- they are deadlocked over the issue of Jerusalem. In addition, neither side is scared enough by the other sides' force to make the other give in. The only way to solve this conflict is to indimate both sides into giving in- Israel could probably be forced by the West because the West could use economic measure to kill Israel's economy. Make Israel retreat to pre-1967 borders, making Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem into a Palestinian state. Give the Jewish settlers an option of either leaving to Israel proper or becoming citizens of Palestine as an ethinic minority. Give the Golan Heights back to Syria, the Shebaa farms back to Lebanon. Pressure with all available strength the Arab states to recognize Israel and guarantee the security of Israel.

	11-04-2002 07:47									#35
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I think western world should declare a war against the state of israel. Once it is defeated, administration of the Holy land (Israel/Palestina/Judea/whateveryouwannacallit) should be given to the UN. For me the current state of Israel has no legitimate reason to exist. An apartheid system of people believing they are the superrace is something very, very sick to me. Boring hordes of jewish fools gathered to the settlements from america and russia...Just a buch of schmucks

8

	11-04-2002 08:45									#36
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Step One: Grab Sharon and Arafat.

Step Two: Lock them in a small plexiglass chamber, sort of like the battlebox from Battlebots, complete with various hazards.

Step Three: Fight to the death.

Step Four: Broadcast on pay-per-view.

Step Five: Use the proceeds to provide quality housing, water, education, and security to all Israelis and Palestinians.


What? It's no more implausible than any other solution offered up thus far.

	11-04-2002 10:57									#37
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Solution 1.

Get rid of the Israeli government and the PLA. Then the EU, or the UN occupy the region and install a government of their own, and outlaw religous schools.

Solution 2.

Only atheists are allowed allowed to serve in a Isreali government or a Palistinion government. No religious issues may be looked at by either government. Each country appoints 7 members to some religous oversight body that has jurisdiction over all religious matters in both countries... Again all forms of religous schools are outlawed in both countries.

	11-04-2002 11:14									#38
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Nah - your solution markusf would be to expand massively, race for republic, build every wonder and trade route you could get and then build temples and marketplaces

	11-04-2002 11:29									#39
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And after everyone is a atheist, i can brainwash them to follow my new religion.

	11-04-2002 11:29									#40
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It's nice to say what's fair and what's not, divide the state, move out the israelis-- but none of this is gonna happen, simply because the US is backing up Israel. So, the changing factor would be the withdrawal of US financial support for Israel. Once Israel's bread disappears from the table, they will have to settle for an equitable solution-- sharing Jerusalem, moving out of Arab land, yada yada. Palestinians won't stop their violence until the Israelis get out, so THAT's where we have to put pressure. I hate it when the US interferes with a foreign country-- but the area is SO unstable, and SO crucial, someone has to intervene. That's all there is to it.

	11-04-2002 11:32									#41
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To the proponents of a democratic, secular, bi-ethinic state:

What do you do when the Palestinians, once they achieve a clear majority in such a state, democratically outlaw Judaism? If they do it constitutionally, in accordance with Western democratic procedures, what basis would there be for interferring?

	11-04-2002 11:40									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly To the proponents of a democratic, secular, bi-ethinic state: What do you do when the Palestinians, once they achieve a clear majority in such a state, democratically outlaw Judaism? If they do it constitutionally, in accordance with Western democratic procedures, what basis would there be for interferring?

I've got a headache already trying to figure out a solution — it'll turn into a migraine if I take the above into consideration.

Gatekeeper

	11-04-2002 11:46									#43
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At the end of the day the Jews and Pals have to learn to live together in peace. Even if you divide the region and create 2 states, those states would be symbiotic economically.

	11-04-2002 12:00									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse At the end of the day the Jews and Pals have to learn to live together in peace. Even if you divide the region and create 2 states, those states would be symbiotic economically.

I doubt it, i really think isreal will be destroyed in the next 20-50 years. Look at the USA, its being over run my hispanics, and they really don't care that much about the middle east. Now add in the fact that technologies are rapidly evolving that make the need oil obsolete. These 2 combined means the USA aid budget to isreal will disapear and it will be left to fend for its self. During this time period nearly every country in the middle east is expected to have developed nuclear and chemical weapons..
So in short, The arabs source of money will quickly disapear, isreal will be left to fend for its self. If people think the middle east is a mess now, whats it going to be in 50 years? A nuclear containimated zone?

	11-04-2002 12:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Kamrat: How would this end the conflict? The establishment of Communism in Eastern europe only heightened that region's ethnic conflicts, and AFAIK the same is true in Asia.

But that was the wrong kind of communism ie stalinism True communism is benevolent and don´t opress people on the basis of creed or ethnic heritage.

	11-04-2002 13:54									#46
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I actually think Bush's initial inclinations were best. Let them fight it out until they are tired of that, and then facilitate a peace agreement. Because most of us grew up in a Cold War world we seem wedded to the idea that borders etc. are etched in stone. This is bullsh!t, people move and change and borders are merely their constructs. It takes an immense amount of energy to hold back the tides of change where they seem inconvenient. Let them fight it out, and perhaps provide a decent place for those tired of the warfare to go. The situation will sort itself out, and the result will be a truly stable area.

	11-04-2002 14:43									#47
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ftp://212.7.71.51/upload/israel/ALessoninChildren'seducation.pps

Interesting slideshow.

	11-04-2002 14:51									#48
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There can be no peaceful soultion when your dealing with people obsessed with death. The Pals and Israelies are bound and determined to play this out until they are exhausted with only old men and women left.

	11-04-2002 15:39									#49
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My solution:

What Imran said, but with a few additions.

After pulling troops out of Palestinian towns, the Israelis should use them to reinforce the borders between the Palestinian territories and the neighboring states. The objective: shut off the supply of explosives and detonators to the suicide bombers.

And Mossad should begin a programme of infiltration of Palestinian schools and removal/assassination of those who preach fanatical Jihad to kids. If the deaths can be made to look natural, that would be good: otherwise, traceless disappearance, or faked evidence of gang warfare. The objective: to remove a generation of indoctrinators as quietly as possible.

	11-04-2002 16:34									#50
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No way on earth Israel should give up all the land going back to 1948. at most they should move back to the 1967 borders. Then don't give Arafat a country but give the land back to the countries that controlled the land back in 1967 Jordan, Egypt and so on.

	11-04-2002 17:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Trying to solve this problem is like trying to solve the American Civil War without bloodshed. It has gone too far and there is too much hatred now. I hope that it does not happen but a military confrontation is now inevitable. This problem will be solved by a full scale war. What is my solution? Try to keep the war from spreading and when the participating countries in the middle east are in ruins see if anyone wants to do something different then.

Yes, except that in the case of our Civil War the North had the industrial might needed to win the war and force the South into surrender. Then questions of economic development could begin to be addressed. Today that capability no longer exists. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians possess the physical-economic capacity to achieve a decisive military victory. Israel has a powerful conventional military force, true, but the Palestinians have the suicide bomber, which traditional military strength has yet to defeat.

Rather than solve the problem, full scale war means a new Hundred Years religious war from which civilization won't survive. Religious wars can't be stopped. The hatred is renewed and strengthened with successive generations. Europe had them continuously from 1511-1648 until the Treaty of Westphalia ended the Thirty Years War, and by then the continent lay in ruins, pilgrims flocked to the New World (perhaps the only good thing to come out of it all).

The best that can be achieved at this point is a temporary political solution. Arab countries must pressure Arafat to give up the Intifada, particularly suicide bombings. The United States in turn must pressure Israel to end the occupation and consent to a Palestinian state. This has to be followed up with massive economic development of the entire Middle East over the next 25-50 years. Think large-scale infrastructure projects like Franklin Roosevelt's Tennessee Valley Authority, which developed the water resources of the American South, only ones more appropriate to the geography of the Middle East (e.g., large-scale nuclear-powered desalination plants). Only through a major US-led international commitment to nation-building and increasing the productive (i.e., cognitive) power of labor can the necessary conditions for peace and democracy throughout the entire Middle East be created.

The alternative is global religious war and a new dark age for all of humanity. The first step in averting this catastrophe internationally is the abandonment of free trade. The Bush Administration's recent steel tariffs are a move in the right direction. Sending Secretary of State Powell to attempt to disarm the powder keg for global religious war that is the Middle East is also a step in the right direction. Much more needs to be done however.

So please stand up and fight for the General Welfare!

	11-04-2002 17:38									#52
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If someone said this, I missed it, but it seems to me that any solution the West (US and EU) imposes on the situation should be accompanied by a guarantee that any Israeli citizen can emigrate to the US or any EU nation if they so choose, regardless of that nation's current immigration policies and quotas. That seems only fair.

	11-04-2002 17:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly If someone said this, I missed it, but it seems to me that any solution the West (US and EU) imposes on the situation should be accompanied by a guarantee that any Israeli citizen can emigrate to the US or any EU nation if they so choose, regardless of that nation's current immigration policies and quotas. That seems only fair.

Perhaps this should apply to any Palestinian as well?

	11-04-2002 18:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Jules Perhaps this should apply to any Palestinian as well?

Not really. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I think it's teh Jews who really matter here, for two reasons:

1) It's Israel which continues to be imperiled, and which will be made less secure by any settlement the West imposes (this can't be said often enough: the Arab states and the PA are on record as commited to the elimination of Israel, not just a reduction of its borders).

2) Unlike the Pals, most Israelis are from families that emigated to the Middle East, after the West told them they would secure a Jewish state. I think of this as the Israeli "right of return."

	11-04-2002 20:05									#55
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I see Imran still spreads the disinformation.

The settlements are NOT ILLEGAL.

When the arabs lost their genicidal war against Israel in 48, the Pals ceded the west bank to Jordan, Gaza strip to Eygpt.

They wanted another go round in 67, but Israel got wind of it in time and hit them in their jump-off spots.

Jordan CEDED the west bank to Israel.

So give it up that the settlements are illeagal, Israel has a leagal right under international law to do whatever they want with it, so give that up.

The Pals did this to themselves through hate which they sowed.

Now they are reaping it.

You should all bare that in mind before again sounding off on how "wrong" Israel is.

	11-04-2002 23:33									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi 8

?

	12-04-2002 02:33									#57
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quote: The settlements are NOT ILLEGAL.

Read the Geneva Convention. Settlements in occupied territories goes against it.

quote: Jordan CEDED the west bank to Israel.

Um... no. Jordan gave up their claim to the West Bank... they never gave it to Israel (how could they when they didn't even recognize them).

Now you should stop spreading Isreali propaganda .

	12-04-2002 03:00									#58
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Whatever solution there is, it can't involve the UN. Not only has the UN been privy to various decisions like "Zionism is racism" and other such bullshit, but they've proven their ineffectiveness on a number of peacekeeping missions. Case in point: UNIFIL. What exactly is it doing in Lebanon? Polishing blue helmets? It certainly isn't stopping Hezbollah from attacking Israel's northern border.

Along with that, various UN peacekeeping missions have been known to be corrupt. As I recall reading somewhere, Pakistanis -- who are prolific in a number of peacekeeping deployments -- were known to have sold their guns to rebels they were supposed to be "bringing peace" to as well as getting involved in local drug trades and other criminal activity. And these are not isolated incidents. UN peacekeepers would just add to the mess of conflicting idealogies and peoples that currently make up Israel and the Disputed Territories.

The best solution for the moment is to launch another broad sweep in Gaza to gather intelligence. Israel can then use the intelligence to re-begin the less politically damaging policy of assassinating leaders in both the West Bank and Gaza known to be involved in suicide attacks. Once the suicide attacks start dropping off, as they hopefully shall, buffer zones around Gaza and the West Bank need to be created to ensure the people intent on taking others to hell with them be never allowed into their intended targets.

After several years of protecting the buffer zone, one should hope that Arafat is dead and someone of a younger Israeli generation is in power. At this point, negotiations for an independent Palestinian REPUBLIC can begin. Palestine should be given most of the West Bank and all of Gaza, while settlers in the region should be convinced or "persuaded" to move out and resettle in the Negev -- they're much more needed there. Arab East Jerusalem should be under joint Israeli-Palestinian administration for an undefined amount of time, until it's clear Palestine can run their area of the city successfully. Palestinians need to be moved out of the refugee camps and -- not back to Israel, as that argument is getting tired and is impractical -- but to new homes in the new Palestinian Republic. Most importantly, the youth of Palestine must be educated in the benefits of coexistence, respect for other cultures, and democratic values; no more "Palestine is from the river to the sea", no more anti-semitism.

At this point, both nations will begin to prosper. Jews from across the world will realize that Israel actually IS an economically viable place to live and will begin to flock there for reasons other than idealogy or persecution, while Palestinians will breed and be happy; the demographics will remain about the same, due to the influx of immigrants on one end and babies on the other, but the two new states will be better places for one to raise their children.

And the Middle East lived happily ever after. The end. Now go to sleep, my child, and dream sweet dreams.

	12-04-2002 05:18									#59
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Well... one of two solutions (or maybe a combination)

Firstly, I'd deport all the Palestinians and any Palestinian sympathizers from the Israeli terratories.

I'd put them on boats, on the Med. The ship building industry would obviously get a huge boost.

The Arabs would be welcome to provide new land for these wonderful people to live, which I'm quite sure they'd be happy to do.

Secondly, I (using USA and UK forces) would launch unannounced attacks on Iraq, Syria and Libia. I'd declare these as actions to depose primary Terroristic regimes. I'd annex the Saudi oil wells, and stop buying other Arab nations' oil. Most likely, several neighboring countries would act in some military fashion against the coalition or Israel, prompting military action against them. Ultimately, some terrorist act would be made by a muslim against a US or UK target, at which point I'd announce a '100-1' response ratio, killing 100 arab civilians for every US or UK civilian killed. I'd estimate that the conflict would widen, to a point where I'd use nuclear weapons on major targets of opportunity.

In my opinion, a 21st century Crusade would be a very beneficial thing for the majority of the planet.

mrbaggins

	12-04-2002 05:44									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Jules Rather than solve the problem, full scale war means a new Hundred Years religious war from which civilization won't survive. Religious wars can't be stopped. The hatred is renewed and strengthened with successive generations...

You are right of course. Religious wars cannot be stopped and as you said this has a potential to break out into an international religious war (although the nations that join will not necessarily be joining for religious reasons).

I do think however that Israel would attain a decisive victory in a real war but that would only infuriate the muslim world and Europe which has always supported truth, justice and tranquility.