10-04-2002 21:03									#1
	HELP ! randomizing of the content in the Goody Huts/Ruins ... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I know some wil save game before entering a goody hut/ruin ,
but won't they still do that when the goody hut/ruin has a fixed
content or even simply avoid it ?

Who can help me here - how can at least I myself (not exactly a
mod-nerd) mod/change CTP2 so the goody huts/ruins will have
randomizing like 10% money , 20 % barbarians , 10 % advances ,
5 % cities , 5 % settlers , 20 % units and so on ??????


Thanx in advance !!!!!!

	10-04-2002 22:45									#2
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by PDA-CIV I know some wil save game before entering a goody hut/ruin,but won't they still do that when the goody hut/ruin has a fixed content or even simply avoid it?

Actual I did this in Civ2 until I got my city and in CTP1/2 I save before entering a ruin, too. And if it coantains an Barbarian ambush I reload and avoid this ruin. OK maybe I wouldn't do it in an succession game but on my private games, exploiting all gaps why not if you have fun.

-Martin

	10-04-2002 23:24									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Many people (among whom yours truly) regard the sort of strategy Martin describes cheating (and aside from that, it ruins the gaming experience IMHO), so I like it the way it is.

If you want to change the settings for goody huts, you can chance the chances of getting certain things (units, techs, etc) in risks.txt, but to the best of my knowledge you can't make it so that you get something different from a goody hut every time after reloading a savegame.

	10-04-2002 23:25									#4
	The element of uncertainty , yes ! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Please ; this is a very serious subject , the randomizing
of the content in the Goody Huts/Ruins !!!!

Well I like to play with map unexplored and the goody huts/ruins
unpredictable = not the same if you happen to reload - it is this
sense of RTS you get , not knowing what situation you will be in !

Actually I quickly found it very silly to restart to get a better GOODY ...
I realized that it gave the game a "live-touch"
which a game like chess totally lacks . In this way you could
use your skills to rule etc. as well as "making up history as we
went along ..."(Linda Hamilton in Terminator2) . I'm a great
backgammon-player too , it has this dice-element of uncertainty
that Heisenberg and our danish Niels Bohr discussed with Albert
Einstein ... Maybe I'm just a crazy Physics-student !?

If someone has ANY idea please help and tell me how to make CTP2 an uncertain cyberspace for us all !?!?!?!

	10-04-2002 23:46									#5
	Support Apolyton

I'm not sure I understand your question: the goody huts *are*randomized. In the unmodded game, on Raging hordes level, there's a 25% chance of getting Barbarians, a 20% chance of getting gold, a 20% chance of an advance, a 15% chance of a unit, a 5% chance of a city and a 10% chance of a settler (info from strings.txt, where you can also change it).

What exactly is non-random about this? I want to help, but I don't know what you're asking

	11-04-2002 00:57									#6
	Thanx for trying to understand me ! Put an end to popups!

Well , there isn't much fun in knowing it is determined what goody you will run into , even though you won't know it beforehand - it's like a planned backgammon-game where
every move just reveals a pre-thrown pair of dices ..........

Hope you think my point is valid , though perhaps rarely expressed ; anyway I cant find help in the strings.txt -
I cannot find relevant things to change ... can you ?

STRINGS.TXT

#import "Strings.txt" # Strings: This file

import "add_str.txt" # Addon: String additions should temporarily reside here. Strings should be moved from here to where they belong. This file should be gone by the time we CR.
import "civ_str.txt" # Civ City Ruler Names
import "dip_str.txt" # Diplomacy:
import "err_str.txt" # Error: None of these will be localized so it would be nice to have them out on their own
import "exp_str.txt" # Explanation: Reasons for City (Un)Happiness and Civ Points
import "gl_str.txt" # Great Library: Terms and Descriptions
import "info_str.txt" # Info Message: Includes Drop Down & Instant Action Messages. Trade could go here
import "junk_str.txt" # Junk: Trash can for obsolete strings that need to be there for the executable. Programmers should delete things from junk_str.txt
import "ldl_str.txt" # LDL strings: Migration from LDL
import "tut_str.txt" # Tutorial:

#SAM022299 added for cheat tools
import "cht_str.txt" # Cheat Tools

#JBR08031999 added scen_str.txt
import "scen_str.txt"

#REM101999 for new diplomacy system
import "dip2_str.txt"

#BMH040800 added for tooltips and status bar text
import "tips_str.txt"

import "feat_str.txt"

import "tut2_str.txt"

import "cut_str.txt"

	11-04-2002 01:40									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

D'oh! Sorry, that should be risks.txt, I was distracted by someone on ICQ who asked my something about Strings in Java when I wrote that

Now you're getting philisophical: if a tree falls in a forest and there is nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound? If the contents of a goody hut is predetermined but nobody knows what it is, is it non-random?

You could argue for hours and not reach a conclusion, but I prefer the practical approach: it doesn't make a difference for how the game plays, so why bother? But that's just my opinion, I can understand your line of reasoning...

	11-04-2002 03:37									#8
	I'm half happy ... Tired of ads?

Hey , I Like your trees Locutus !

OK , you have understoood me correctly at a logical level ;
that's halfway ...
There's no need to argue for hours if you can agree that
in real life , reality (a practical approach , right ?) there's
always an element of chance , of things changing in the
last minut or your very presence around it can change it .

I did notice in Civ 1 & 2 that the huts would not produce
barbarians (I tried reloads many times just to check this)
if you had uncovered the surrounding area ....
There was also the classical conditions that if you placed
a city near the huts it would change character too !
There are a couple of other factors influencing this I have
noticed and since you study Computer Science it would be
nice to know if you can confirm some of my observations .

Does civ.exe and/or civ2.exe somehow use or contain a
random-function for the in-game-play ???
Or is there a use of the PC-clock (in example the seconds)
to randomize the huts contents via some script ???

These and many other questions will be answered by the
one and only Locutus in the next episode of .....

CTP2 : Controlling Total Power 2

	11-04-2002 04:16									#9
	Re: I'm half happy ... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by PDA-CIV There's no need to argue for hours if you can agree that in real life , reality (a practical approach , right ?) there's always an element of chance , of things changing in the last minut or your very presence around it can change it .

Well, the contents of the goody-huts is set randomly at the start of the game, it will just not be changed after that (except that very early in the game you will not get barbarians and huts right next to a city will never give another city). That's good enough for me, at least.

quote: Does civ.exe and/or civ2.exe somehow use or contain a random-function for the in-game-play ??? Or is there a use of the PC-clock (in example the seconds) to randomize the huts contents via some script ???

I'm not gonna check for you but it probably does indeed contain a random function, it almost has to be. Note however that there's no such thing as 'random' for computers, that's a concept that such a simple device (conceptually, at least) can't handle. To simulate randomness, most programmers use, like you mentioned, the clock as the seed of the random function (which returns elements of known lists of numbers that are suitable to simulate randomness). Different seeds means different lists so with the clock (which usually counts milliseconds) as seed it's impossible to predict which number will eventually be used (I'm no expert on this sort of low-level stuff but that's roughly how it works). So in reality it's actually a little bit of both.

CtP1/2 probably uses the same technique for goody huts but sets the contents of goody buts at the start of the game and stores it permanently. For battles and other events where randomness plays a role, CtP2 uses a different technique: the same random function is probably used, but the seed is static for specific situations, probably the game turn. E.g. in turn 20 the outcome of the exact same battle is (slightly) different than in turn 21 but whatever you do, you will never get different results as long as you keep fighting that battle in turn 20.

	11-04-2002 16:00									#10
	Sorry for the pause indiscussion , but I had to sleep ! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Though I've gone to bed , my computer is doing maintenance
and sometimes remains logged on ApolytonNet , b4 shutdown .

Anyway I'm actually very well aware of the programming-facts :

quote: Note however that there's no such thing as 'random' for computers, that's a concept that such a simple device (conceptually, at least) can't handle. To simulate randomness, most programmers use, like you mentioned, the clock as the seed of the random function (which returns elements of known lists of numbers that are suitable to simulate randomness). Different seeds means different lists so with the clock (which usually counts milliseconds) as seed it's impossible to predict which number will eventually be used (I'm no expert on this sort of low-level stuff but that's roughly how it works). So in reality it's actually a little bit of both.

I used a random-loop in a pokerprogram I made in 1976 - back
then we "saw" the results on 9dots Matrix-printer ... and all the
programming was handwritten (pencil and rubber !) before we
programmed the stuff . I know it's not a "genuine" randomizing
function and about seeds and split-seconds for this ... Nothing
new for me , but I hope other newbies benefit from this thread .

quote: I'm not gonna check for you but it probably does indeed contain a random function, it almost has to be.

SH*T ! I thought I could trick You to slave for me , no , but
seriously , if Your only wish ((((( See Locutus other thread :
Halt! Who goes there? ))))) is the source-code of CTP2 You will
have to handle randomfunctions anyway . And probably all the
CIV/SIM-exes are stripped and cracked by some genius out there ,
but I'm not encouraging illegal ways to get it ! As a matter of fact
I think we should simply ask Activision to donate the source-code
to Apolytons forum since they won't make a CTP3 ... UNLESS we
check it , change it , test it and SEND IT BACK to Activision so they
can develop it further and ultimately announce the sale of :

A low-price Call to Power 3 the FanEdition

In fact I'll start a thread with a petition and poll to influence that
nice company (=Activision) to make more money by not working
very hard and getting a lot of publicity and a Civilized Comeback ...
Maybe CTP3 should be called : The Civilized Call To Power
or it could be called (there's a game called Ancient Civilizations)
so they could get back the sacred magic old civilization-name :

|||||||||||CTP3 : Call To Civilization||||||||||||||

Eventually Sid Meier should have listened more , instead of taking
stuff from CTP1 and CTP2 , he can make it up by helping Activision !
The crazy pDAne goes berserk again #~¤$€>§!!!!!!!!

How about that Locutus (and better random-functions in the game , of course ) a quick revolution ? Contact Mark ,
Phone Ming , Bring in Sting (what's he got to do with it ?!?) but don't call The Police ... (Let him make music for the game ,
I've heard he is a civ- and jazz-player !) or just call the President , I don't care , just rock it !