16-04-2002 03:15									#31
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It's a shame my question has stopped the fun, that wasn't the intention. Perhaps Markus should tell us his opinion of AH's civing skills.........

	16-04-2002 04:05									#32
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i have played as many games as anyone else around here.....deity raging...x2x1 and x1x1 small, med , large and i have lost enough cities from barb archers and chariots defending only with warriors......

however....your pretty safe with at least three cities..... but its not a guarrantee...

when the cow jumps over the moon...about once a year that is, i lose my second city...but thats the chance you take.....i love hearing people whine about losing their cities....

if you lose one...i would suggest phalanxes but that is for wimps

i have had warriors win agains legions on flat terrain...sometimes the math does weird things........live with it...besides markus..you get as much hut luck as anyone i know and ***** when you don't get it....

not too mention your good enough to beat anyone...poor start or not especially AH

	16-04-2002 05:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DaveV I lost my second city to barbs in a 1x1x/deity/raging 2 player game, and my fourth city in a 1x1x/deity/raging 3 player game. Were the Markus/wonderdog/crustacian games played as scenarios or some other altered starting conditions?

Nope, although i notice map settings make a huge difference in barb attacks.

	16-04-2002 05:29									#34
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quote: Originally posted by markusf Nope, although i notice map settings make a huge difference in barb attacks.

I disagree with this as well... I've just run a bunch of tests using different map settings, and it doesn't make one bit of difference.

	16-04-2002 06:02									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I disagree with this as well... I've just run a bunch of tests using different map settings, and it doesn't make one bit of difference.

wet warm 3 billlion 1x 1x med land archo... raging hordes diety.

in one game build your capitol near water, in another make sure there are NO water squares in your caps radius.

	16-04-2002 06:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike It's a shame my question has stopped the fun, that wasn't the intention. Perhaps Markus should tell us his opinion of AH's civing skills.........

Are you implying AH actually has civ skills?

	16-04-2002 12:08									#37
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quote: Originally posted by markusf You insisted on 2x for the first games, i got the icq history to prove it.

"insisted"? That is crap. post the damn icq log. "Suggested" maybe - in the interests of a quick game.

We Aussies play raging hordes all the time because we like the cash

Its okay Markusf - we now know you can't handle barbs. Bit of a skill deficit there old chap

	16-04-2002 17:57									#38
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Just my luck , i run out of popcorn just as the horse empire strikes back.

	16-04-2002 18:25									#39
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dont' worry Hydey i am waiting for the sequel......"the return of the jedi" before i get my jumbo popcorn and beer!!

	16-04-2002 19:36									#40
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Me. I'm waiting for THE BARBARIAN MENACE. And I prefer a jumbo beer and popcorn.

RAH

Markus, are you insinuating that barbs off of boats may attack differently then random land based barbs? Which also brings up barbs out of huts. Do they follow they same protection rules?

	16-04-2002 20:26									#41
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You guys are complete idiots. Barbarians add nothing to the game other than to give random events and piss you off. It's like playing russian Roullette. Would it not make more sense to play without the barbarians? Would it not make the game more of a human vs human rather than a human vs the AI/settings? Do barbarians actually add anything to the game other than to slow down the expansion speed of both players? And in that case, does that not slow down the game?

	16-04-2002 20:46									#42
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Difference of opinion, doesn't necessarily make it Idiocy.

I wish there were more random events. I like huts. Adversity challanges peoples ability to adapt. The game would be boring without them. I don't like settler spitting/no defense games. Those are boring.
There are different strats for timing sometimes when opening a hut, or when you're limited to 1 movement units for king chasing. Or how to best defend with the least amount of resources.
That's what I find fun. Some of us don't have 1 mile long dicks that we must prove everytime we play. Sometimes it's just about fun. That's the beauty of this game, you have the choice. And that's why this game is still being played.

RAH

	16-04-2002 21:27									#43
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I like random events - you might as well complain about the iniquities of the map not giving identical specials - or terrain that favours one player's starting point / strategy rather than another.

I play SP - and it is this random factor that makes for the extra bit of fun - otherwise crushing the AI becomes boring. Other posters here praise your MP skills Eyes - so I have no reason to doubt them, surely a bit of randomness that might occasionally allow an opponent to put up a real fight is something to be relished? I understand from your earlier posts that you no longer play Civ2 - too easy and boring -- might not that random factor bring back the magic?

Just a thought...

SG[1]

	16-04-2002 21:29									#44
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quote: Originally posted by rah Markus, are you insinuating that barbs off of boats may attack differently then random land based barbs? Which also brings up barbs out of huts. Do they follow they same protection rules?

Yes.. Plus land based barbs you can tell exactly where they are going to spawn, and as soon as you put a city in that area they are gone.

	16-04-2002 21:39									#45
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Something else for MING to test during his free time.

I may actually test that one myself. I've always suspected that they may be a difference, but without keeping copious notes, it's all speculation.

RAH
Spwaning points, I'm aware of and have taken advantage of

	16-04-2002 21:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by markusf Yes.. Plus land based barbs you can tell exactly where they are going to spawn, and as soon as you put a city in that area they are gone.

That is pretty much common knowledge these days... We've been setting up "killing fields" for years now so that we can harvast barb kings

And as far as barbs from huts vs normal appearing barbs, they attack and take second and first cities in the same fashion
(or at least it seemed that way on the 10 or so tests I just ran)

	16-04-2002 21:54									#47
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Well, I have a mile long **** and got MAD Skillz.

Best of both worlds


Seriously though, what fun is no barbs? Even I can have a superior game with no meddling from neighbors (Read: ColdWiz).

You guys are good enough that you should be finding NEW ways of making the game more difficult. And if you don't like/respect the people you are playing with, find somebody new.

My two pennies!

*back to the cheap seats*

	16-04-2002 22:33									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ming And as far as barbs from huts vs normal appearing barbs, they attack and take second and first cities in the same fashion (or at least it seemed that way on the 10 or so tests I just ran)

Did you test barbs off of boats? That was the main issue Markus and I were concerned about.

RAH
FF

It's all about choice. Different strokes for different folks. There are still enough of us left to find people that like the same type of things.

	16-04-2002 22:40									#49
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quote: Originally posted by rah Did you test barbs off of boats? That was the main issue Markus and I were concerned about.

In the tests I ran the other day... two barb archers walked off a ship and took my second city... I reset and the ship didn't appear on the next turn. A few turns later, a barb archer wandered out of the black with a barb king... and did the same thing to the city.
However, only one example. I was testing the lose the second city theory, not the do all barbs act alike theory...

	16-04-2002 23:46									#50
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If I wanted random events and things to slow down everyone else I'd play against the AI. If I want a real game where skill is the determining factor and not who gets raped by barbarians first, then I take out everything I possibly can. And I quit because the game has died. Cheaters have been allowed to constantly cheat and even still do now and nobody seems to care. When nobody cares about cheating then the game is essentially dead and has no real support. Another sign is the fact that there is no organized league play anymore and of course activity on the zone has pretty much dwindled to nothing. I play AOK: The Conquerors now but every once in a while I feel like having a good 2 on 2 or playing an islands game just for the fun of it. I didn't quit because the competition was too easy, I quit because the competition left.

	16-04-2002 23:55									#51
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Always thought you left becouse everyone was so fed up with you nobody wanted to play you anymore

	17-04-2002 03:28									#52
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If you don't want random events, go play chess. One of the beauties of Civ2 is a lovely balance of controllable factors and a few random events. Sometimes they knock you on your dupa but other times you manage the randomness with skill.

It also gives me something to blame when Rah grinds me into the mountain terrain. Dang wish I had time to play tonight. Maybe if the wife will just leave me alone...

	17-04-2002 13:19									#53
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Well because of Markusf's whining about barbs the fifth game has them set at "villages"

	17-04-2002 15:53									#54
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I love all these "it adds another random factor to the game" comments. But I think it has more to do with the fact that some people don't defend their cities... and then whine about "random" barbarians when they lose a city to them

	17-04-2002 16:31									#55
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I agree with Ming. In fact I think the real reason Markus and Eyes don't like barbs is they play an expansion strat which relies on as little interference from barbs as possible

Now that I know I don't have to defend my cities in this game I can do the same Its sooooo easy, I feel like I'm playing King or something.

	17-04-2002 16:44									#56
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Barbs, no barbs, it's all fine. But if one plays a high risk strategy and it fails IMO that loss is as significant as any other. If the risk (here expanding quickly at the expense of defence) pays off the player taking the risk will reap the benefits, and count the possible eventual win as a proper one.

	17-04-2002 16:55									#57
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Part of the game is "taking risks"... but it seems like some people feel that there should be no risk in using their "I'm not going to waste resources defending myself" strategy...

If that's what you want to do... fine... but there should be some risk in doing so.

	17-04-2002 17:11									#58
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I can see why some players would want to remove barbs and huts. But at the end of the day most of us play for fun, and civ is an inherently random game. Combat is random and starting positions are rarely truely equal. Embrace the randomness, play the percentages, and over the course of a few games the best player will win more of the games.

I would further add that if you are the superior player for god's sake defend more than average. The percentage strat for you is clearly to survive to let superior skill work it's magic.

	17-04-2002 17:35									#59
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I find barbs make the early game exciting (even hair raising) and then at hordes level they become an excellent source of cash - if you know how to deal with them.

We in the Aussie group always play Deity level hordes.

	17-04-2002 17:44									#60
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I agree also. most of the self proclaimed great players only difference over other good players is that they don't defend so get off to a slightly better start. Hell, I'd love to play all my games balls out, and then around 2500 B.C. determine if those random things hurt me and if they did, just quit the game and claim that I didn't really lose, just the other person got lucky.

RAH
And I don't see anywhere near the amount of cheating that some claim here. Of course, that's probably because I don't play in Leagues.