13-04-2002 04:21									#1
	Some More Questions... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Since my last questions were answered so kindly, I figured I would bug you guys with some more. Based on the readme provided I decided to get the patch, and I'm pretty happy (I especially like knowing how many votes I have without trying to elect a governer first). Also, being governer actually allows me to infiltrate (before patch it did not).

Anyway, on to the questions...

(1) The patch is suppose to get rid of negative inefficiency for the hive.... so I went planned and police state (-4 EFF), and my energy/research plummeted almost to zero! Is their something I am not aware of?

(2) A couple of games I have been unable to win. I can't build the ascent (option doesn't appear), vote for supreme leader doesn't appear, economic victory doesn't appear, and I still have someone with vendetta against me (so not conquest yet). In the rules I have allowed the various forms of victory. Anyone seen this before?

(3) If you are governer, you get infiltration everywhere... if you then lose governer, do you get to keep the infiltration or do you need to start sending out the probe teams?

(4) Damn bureaucracy drones don't respond to psych! (not a question, just a comment)

(5) I think that is all for now.

Thanks!

	13-04-2002 04:41									#2
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1) What were your SE settings before you went to PS/PL ? What does the SE screen say your EFF is now? Also, what is your energy allocation? Hive's immunity to SE caused inefficiency doesn't affect inequal allocation loss.

2) This sounds odd. Did you build the Voice of Planet? Where don't SL vote and economic victory appear? Do you have the required techs for those two victories? ... MMI to call for the vote in Council and Planetary Economics to attempt to corner the energy market. Do you know how to corner the market?

How many non-submissive pactmates have you? Most victory types have limits on the number of factions that can win cooperatively. (see datalinks) If your pacts exceed that number, perhaps the option isn't available.

3) If you lose the office, you lose the infiltration. If you had infiltration prior to getting elected, or if you condusct probe infiltration while governor, you keep that.

4) Pretty sure they do.

Been a long time since I played V1.0, but I thought governors' infiltration was always in the game. *shrug*

Finally, the game(s) in question...were they started patched or patched in process? I don't recall if it was a problem to patch SMAC midway, but other games I have had problems when doing so.

	13-04-2002 07:33									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

(2) I've had this happen to me when I played Morgan. I'm pretty sure I wasn't pacted with more than two factions when I got both MMI and Planetary Economics, but once I realised that I couldn't win anyway I got everyone except First Pactmate Yang into a submissive pact and told them to quit fighting each other. It worked beautifully until Yang finally built his first Planetbuster and felt compelled to use it on Santiago. Oh well, I was still pacted to them all by the time I retired from that game - got 1000+ points from all the commerce.

I have no idea why it happened, although I remember that it was the first and only time I used the "Use current rules" option when starting a game. Ever since I've been careful to always specify which rules are to be used.

	13-04-2002 08:58									#4
	Re: Some More Questions... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Knave75 (4) Damn bureaucracy drones don't respond to psych! (not a question, just a comment)

B drones do respond to psych. You must have super-drones. These drones occur when you have all drones, and exceed a barrier where you would get another. Since you can't, one of your 2 psych drones, turns into a super 4 psych drone. Allocate more psych, and you will see that they can be pacified. Whether it is worth pacifying them is another question.

You may be better off, just using rec com(2), res hosp(1), and maybe Network Node+VW(2) = 3 to 5 workers, and change all your other citizens to specialists. Crawl in the required nuts for your pop. If you can use police, you may be able to have more workers.

bc

	13-04-2002 10:28									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Cool, I think I got a bunch of the answers I was looking for. To summarize:

(1) I switched to the upgrade mid game so maybe that had something to do with the lousy hive research

(2) I often use "play with current rules" so maybe that has something to do with it.... I will stop that now

(3) The drones were indeed super drones. I was controlling them with facilities and police, but I was annoyed that it took about 8 points of psych just to knock off one drone. It wasn't really a question but thanks for the answer!

(4) In most of these games I had about 3-4 people submissively pacted to me. I always thought that the pact limit only applied to real pacts, not the submissive kind. Next time I get stuck like this I will unpact some people and see if that helps.

(5) Mongoose: Inefficiency was completely from the "economic paralysis" Until my efficiency is at least +3 I almost never unbalance my economic/labs (unless I really want a tech fast or I need money to wage a war).

(6) Canuck: (hiding face) I hate using crawlers to bring in stuff... I build my bases close to each other and like to have the population work my forests. I know I know, everyone here thinks crawlers are god's gift to humans vs. AI's... and they are with respect to secret projects and prototypes, but I just hate it when my crawlers get knocked off as soon as AI gets air power, so I choose to avoid that particular micromanagement nightmare.

(7) Mongoose again: I had built voice of planet. It would not let me (or anyone else) build the ascent. I also had the prereq tech's given that I had every tech possible . Game just refused to end, so I resigned, and then I didn't get victory points in the score (not that I care about score, but it was unsatisfying not to win)

Again, thanks for the answers everyone!

	13-04-2002 10:42									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No Ascent? What victory conditions are enabled?

No crawlers? Sacrilege!
For crawlers in vulnerable areas try a little armor or some interceptors. Provided that you don't have the interceptor bug this should get rid of most of your trouble.

	13-04-2002 13:51									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Knave75, I initially asked about non-submissive pactmates. The submissive type don't count, as you had surmised.

I think it likely that patching mid-game is the cause of the EFF and victory problems.

	14-04-2002 09:15									#8
	Put an end to popups!

I don't think patching mid-game helps, no. Much of the stuff that needs patching is, as far as I know, embedded in the save (something that is useful when wanting to avoid some pbem cheating).

	15-04-2002 19:19									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Mongoose 3) If you lose the office, you lose the infiltration. If you had infiltration prior to getting elected, or if you conduct probe infiltration while governor, you keep that.

Are you sure about this? I don't have a recent direct experience of this exact situation, but I do for a very similar one - that is, I had pactmate infiltration, then successfully obtained probe infiltration of the same faction - when the pact was ended, so was my infiltration. I could see that the governship could be different, but it seems that the infiltration logic is rather simple-minded, so I would guess that you would lose it in the situation described.

	15-04-2002 20:17									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller Are you sure about this? I don't have a recent direct experience of this exact situation, but I do for a very similar one - that is, I had pactmate infiltration, then successfully obtained probe infiltration of the same faction - when the pact was ended, so was my infiltration. I could see that the governship could be different, but it seems that the infiltration logic is rather simple-minded, so I would guess that you would lose it in the situation described.

Fairly certain, yes. In a SP game I have ongoing (SMAX) I lost the governorship to Yang. I still have infiltration on all remaining factions, and I haven't done the infiltration since losing the office. (Nor do I have the EG, Aki does.) I cannot recall which infiltrations were done prior to being elected, but I'm pretty sure at least one was done after being gov.

Never heard of the pact/probe relationship that you describe above. Bears testing in the Editor.

	15-04-2002 21:07									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Knave75 (3) The drones were indeed super drones. I was controlling them with facilities and police, but I was annoyed that it took about 8 points of psych just to knock off one drone.

When you have superdrones, the base control screen does not display drones correctly. It may show some of your population as drones when they are really workers. If you click on the "psych" button in the base control screen, you will see the workers and drones displayed correctly.

One other thing to keep in mind: if you had any pacifist drones, they are tough to get rid of. Psych points go to pacifist drones last, after upgrading all of the other citizens to specialists.

	18-04-2002 04:59									#12
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Actually psych get added before pacifist drones. Pacifist drones can only be balanced by talents, or quelled by secret projects such as the HGP, or the LV under planned or green.

What is the order that drones are resolved in the psych screen?

1. basic
2. psych
3. facilities and police
4. pacifist drones added
5. secret project effects

This means psych, facilities and police can never quell pacifist drones, though psych, and talent creating facilities(paradise garden) can counter pacifist drones.

bc

Last edited by big_canuk on 18-04-2002 at 05:05

	19-04-2002 21:08									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sorry if my admittedly imprecise post was misleading. Thanks for clearing that up, bc.

	19-04-2002 23:03									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My pleasure. I am so happy that you take the lead on answering these questions. Sorry if I am picky about clarity, but I know it is easy to miscomprehend.

?Able ?able aboo. (_**&&(%*&.

bc

	20-04-2002 11:52									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Does it really matter whether drones are turned into talents or workers by the psyche and all the other stuff? Isn't it just the net plus or minus from zero that matters? Like even if you have enough talents to GA, if you also have a drone or two - enough to net you out below the GA level - you can't do it. Similarly, if you have a talent to balance each drone, you won't be in riot no matter if you are showing a lot of red faces.

The thing I find interesting about the superdrones is that the basic facilities will cover them as if they were regular drones. So if you have a small base with superdrones, the RecComm and Holo will take care of 4 pops no matter how red they are.

	20-04-2002 19:15									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

The psych allocations routine plays a big part in a couple of instances.

For example pacificst drone get applied well into the routine thus negating a lot of previously applied psych. Couple that with the fact that it is nigh impossible to correct the pacifists to talents it makes it very difficult to sustain a golden age.

Youcan actually see the calcs graphically depicted in the psych screen inside the base screen.

	20-04-2002 21:29									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

G-damn peacemongering drone scum! I hate 'em!