29-03-2001 13:19									#1
	Screenshots tell me some secrets... Tired of ads?

Ok, I've get few replies on another thread, submerged by screenshots enthusiasts.

Let's try once again

CIV III screenshots are promising, IMHO. They are alpha images, but probably not so far from final game look (ok, they can change 'till last minute rush, but I don't think they will redraw all from scratch.

Now let's see what juice we can squeeze from these news.
This can help adjusting our discussion, focusing only to game area still open; as happened for recent hex map debate, IMHO is a waste of time discussing about abandoned game features.

Examining the pic we can suppose:
- 3D terrain is not included, but simulated by tiles: flat, square and isometric are back (for Sid simplicity Mantra?)

- dark images (scan effect taken) are quite near (on my monitor, at least ) to "Tower of Babel" painting it's mentioned. It seems more on the Epic side than Toy side, if you ask me, and I'll enjoy it as long as units are not hidden away in the dark.

- the screenshot showing lot of units is obviusly zoomed out, so I don't mind about units difference from already know full scale units (available on official Firaxis site).
Arquebus unit (top right) seems very interesting to me, as different kind of tanks. I only hope we will have time to build so many different units (if some automatic upgrade will not take care of it).

- city view seems born to live at very large resolutions: 1024*768 could be the very minimum res (and while you think will be no problem, I'm still using a notebook 800*600, thanks for asking ).
- Inside city walls, there is room for about 25 city improvement (the big squares divided by streets seems able to host one), so we'll have max 26 city improvements (walls included). Wonders are outside city walls, so they don't count here.
- city view surrounding seems a bit on the "fall" season; I wonder if we'll get seasonal look change (snow for winter, light green and flowers for spring etc.) It could be an eye candy, a hint of turns down from year to season, a way to show your city "mood" a la Black & White game (dark look for sadness, light for happyness). May be I'm only me, sleeping not enough for my tired brain

- city screen show the classic city "range", no room left to a greather area, so we can forget city radius increase (may be city start with a small radius, but growth no more than classic)
- we will have only a building slot (may be a queue, clicking on it)
- city growth seems only related to food available, as in CIV tradition (more complex models are probably out)
- we can see a biplane on city view: short of eyes candy, I do a jump of imagination and suppose it reproduce a Wonder (Whright Brothers first fly) or may be a Feat of Wonder (First fly over The Channel)

- Military advisor is displayed into four looks, so we'll have four ages in Civ III (forget more complex model)

Ok, my "Sherlock Holmes 10 minutes show" is over. Please tell me what's your opinion about my "deductions".

They can be a pile of .... (well, you know ), but I would like to see Dan face, if I get some right hints after all that mystery Firaxis force him .

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited March 29, 2001).]

	29-03-2001 15:45									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well spotted, everything. Also based on picture #1 it's still possible to build at least roads outside your borders, of course there is then settler/worker units, too.

Graphics could be better. I don't mind these dark landscapes, they fit fairly well, but water should be brighter blue. And the "improved" city graphics in pic 1 make it look like ruins, not to mention irrigation that looks like swamp.

The special grassland squares with bonus resource shield are still there, but they don't anymore form a predictable pattern. Same goes for real special resources. Maybe they can be placed freely in map editor?

There seems to be forests over different kinds of terrains (grasslands, plains, tundra). Maybe we'll see terrain combinations in the game?

OK, enough fo that pic. Other pictures aren't as interesting, though city view really looks cool.

	29-03-2001 18:44									#3
	Support Apolyton

I think by the time you'll be able to build 25 city improvements, city walls will be useless due to modern artillery. They'll just put improvements above 25 outside the city wall if you still have him by that time.

	29-03-2001 20:18									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Coastal improvements, such as Harbors, Coastal Fortresses, and Port Facilities would also be outside the City Walls. Out of necessity, in fact, since the Walls don't reach to the water.

(Some of the non-Coastal Wonders might be inside the City Walls, actually. It's impossible to judge just from seeing the Lighthouse, which would be considered a coastal Wonder. The Colossus, the Statue of Liberty, and Magellan's would also probably be outside the Walls.)

In any case, that City View screenshot is making me drool... @_@

	29-03-2001 21:45									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you notice on the main map screen, the featured city appears to be sprawling out in to it's adjecent squares, i don't see why the city view can't expand also as the city starts to sprawl (just shift the view farther back as more stuff comes up and the city enlarges). the idea that the city view has to be staic just b/c that is the way it was in civ is really not realistic, the technology is so different. heck if they weren't prerendering everything they could even let us fly around the city and view if from different angles! you really can't tell anything from one screenshot.

	30-03-2001 10:41									#6
	Put an end to popups!

The City Screen

I did a print review and enlarge the picture to 200 and 500%. At 500 you will see the pixel so I when back to 200%. The City is Baltimore in the year 2001. It appears that the city will be the standard 21-tile city. The blue line below the picture is the Production line w/ and Aircraft Carrier being builds. The yellow/orange line is Food.
The green area is Trade. On the left side of the picture are the City Improvements that have been build. Below is the number of Garrison units. The yellow diamonds is Pollution. The green line at the bottom was unreadable, however it appears to be the commodity that is available to be traded.

The main map view.
There is a cow there, what do you people think?
It looks like when you build a city; your international border will be three or four tile from your city.
Question In CTP 2 a commodity is not available to trade until the city limit cover the item. Are they (Firaxis) going to use the international border instead?

City View
I like it a lot.
I agree it look like 26 improvements inside the wall but how many outside the wall?
And yes it would be cool if the seasons did change.

Btw city walls just add somewhere between 10% to 20% of protection to the city.


------------------

	30-03-2001 10:42									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

When it come to graphics the picture that interrests me the most is the first one since that is the map view where we will be looking at the most (at least I will).

As said it seems the city does not form a square, maybe we'll see them grow with population?
A strange thing that I noticed is that the seaside city seems to be placed on an intersection of 4 square grids, from my perspective anyway.
This way a city would not use a grid-square or have 4 squares?
But 4 for one city seem unlikely since that would make it too big and create other problems. Also have a look at the "borders" if you would take that into account my previous presumption does not work since if we presume that the city is in the middle we see that we get a grassland square at the seaside for the position of the city and that we have 2 squares arround it. This seems more likely ( and this checkes out if you look at the position of the other city at the edge of the scan) but then again why is the graphic of the city not in the middle of the square, it seems to be on the lower corner.
It also seems that borders that have a gap of one square between them get connected anyway if we assume 2 squares arround a city( see seaside forest under the hill)..

As said the irrigation does not look very nice and resembles a swamp but we must suppose that this is a primitive sort of irrigation in the beginning of the game when you see the ancient units on the screen.

Feel free to comment because I usually get proven wrong at the end, as experience on these forums teaches me

For the rest graphics do seem dark to me too but that's might be due to the scan's, but they seem ok for alfa-graphics to me... I care more about gameplay and AI, although nice graphics are easy on the eyes and a must for this game with its huge reputation to uphold.

Sorry if my english spelling is not very good.
[This message has been edited by Tjoepie (edited March 29, 2001).]

	29-03-2001 23:10									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The Mystery of the Biplane, Hypothesis #3- It's just a unit, innit? Why would it have to be anything else? I assume it is the equavilent of the "fighter" unit, that has happened to stray into range.

City Improvements and Wonders- From City Screen, Collosseum and Pyramids, as well as the improvement I like to dub "Mystery Ziggurath", Which I assume is a temple. Another improvementwhich looks like two square cooking hobs, with a text beginning with an E or a B, or something similar. Placeholder graphic? Finally, a capitol-like structure I can only assume is a bank, library, palace or stock market, althoughfrom the number of letters "Marketplace" seems more likely. City View- Lighthouse, Collosseum, the "Mystery Ziggurath", City Walls, Aqueduct, And a big complex by the eastern wall which might be a palace or alternatively just a part of the City Wall. If it's a separate structure it integrates nicely with the wall, but then so does the Aqueduct. Is this the same city with minor changes? I assume that the demonstration concerned the "culture point" concept and adding a colosseum and "Mystery Ziggurath"/Temple was the best way to show that. Or something.

City Screen- Not having the magazine makes this difficult, but; Two lines of improvements showing the same info- why? What's the reason? Nicely laid-out use of trade. Special Resources seem interesting...

	29-03-2001 23:42									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Look at the map screen, there is diffnately two units on one Square!

Stackable yes!!!

	30-03-2001 12:59									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Someone, somewhere posted a reworked look at the main screen screenshot. I liked the look of those fields alot more, but as has been noted, the shots we are seeing are likely placeholder graphics. (Though usually when companies provide screenies so early that the actual game has placeholders then they rework them in photoshop to look more like what the final product will be. So I fear that the dirty swamps will be with us, atleast for the early parts of the game.)

	30-03-2001 15:17									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

The 'mystery Ziggurat' looks like the HG to me

	30-03-2001 15:24									#13
	Tired of ads?

The writing on city improvements is two small to read, but I can discern the writing "pyramids", which now seems to have upkeep cost. Perhaps wonders need upkkep now?

	30-03-2001 19:11									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yeah,it looks like even wonders will require upkeep. That would be great. it would make building wonders more balanced. We also know from the preview that units will have a gold upkeep instead of shields. That is very good news to me. Using gold will put more of an emphasis on your economy. Hopefully, this also means tht the upkeep is national.

------------------
No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited March 30, 2001).]

	30-03-2001 20:27									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You guys are becoming masters at reading between the lines.

Adm., are you thinking that this might be Civ 2.5 after all and you're ok with that?

	31-03-2001 03:52									#18
	Support Apolyton

Two more city improvements I notice on the screen after straining my eyes:

Courthouse & Colloseum


Terrain: There seems to be more variety - the new terrain I can see is plain/desert? hills, but naturally there may be more.

Bad News:
On the city screen I cannot see the same resource twice, which means the benefits cannot be stacked if you have more than one unit of a certain resource. I thought limited stacking (capped at 3 units) should be allowed.

	05-04-2001 20:01									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I've finally sat down and read the article and took a close look at the images. One dumb question. I love the autumnal-looking city view image and read with interest the discussion about it above. But it then says 'City view' is out. I know everything is in a state of flux, but I am wondering if the city view (if it's in) will be just a static view like before which was worthless, imo. Wouldn't be good if we could do some interactions at that view?

	06-04-2001 03:56									#22
	Suffering from ads?

Please someone tell me, where I can find these screen shots? I read through this thread but couldn't find that info. Thanks.

	06-04-2001 04:07									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

Try **here**.

[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited April 05, 2001).]

	06-04-2001 14:49									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Marko Polo,
Computer Game article, screenshots and comment are also available here, at the thread Computer Game CIV III preview.

------------------
Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	06-04-2001 18:07									#25
	Tired of ads?

The whole article, with text and screenshots is here: Civilization Fanatics Center

Somewhere in the news you can find a link to this.

------------------
Who am I? What am I? Do we need Civ? Well....