13-04-2002 22:18									#1
	modifying the Nations Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Is there anyway to modifying the computer nations (Roman, Persians, etc) to make them more historically accurate?

With the game the way it is:
1. Ghandi is a liar.

2. In every game where they appear, the Babylonians invade my country, no matter how far away they are, and when you ask them to leave they declare war.

3. The Persians seem about right. They are staunch defenders of their territory, but it is impossible to make peace with them once you are in a war.

4. The French military is a wuss. In 4 wars I have seen them in, they never have taken a city.

5. England is supposed to a commerce nation, but it is very difficult to get them to accept any negotiations.

There are problems with the others, but you get the drift.

KATN

	13-04-2002 22:57									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, um, THe French military really hasn't had much luck in the past 200 years of winning wars...They were kicked out of Vietnam, lost WW2, lost to the British in various wars in North America (mainly Canada). Napolean lost too, need I continue?
The French Military in Civ3 reflects their luck over the past 200 years and maybe even further back.

	13-04-2002 23:36									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, there's a couple of things you can do but never expect the AI to play like the real thing. What you can do is to go in the editor and play with the agression level for each civ. You can also change their "shuned" and "favorite" government and their special abilities. I usualy give 4 out 6 ability to each civ and I also make that communism is not pop rush but buying shields. It makes the game more fun. You can also change the UU' values for everyciv so that that civ will play differently depending on the cost for the quality of the UU. Last game I reduce the production of the hoplite, rider and legionair by 1 shield. I had the Babs. Let me tell you, I never saw the chineese with so many Cavalries. He had upgraded all his riders he made cuz of the cheap cost. Same thing with greece, a LOT of defense just like it was in real life.

Spec.

	14-04-2002 08:38									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by scooter mk2 Well, um, THe French military really hasn't had much luck in the past 200 years of winning wars...They were kicked out of Vietnam, lost WW2, lost to the British in various wars in North America (mainly Canada). Napolean lost too, need I continue? The French Military in Civ3 reflects their luck over the past 200 years and maybe even further back.

Well, you must give Napoleon credit. he did invade much of Europe before being beaten.. and then he tried again...

But, otherwise, i must agree. the french aren't noted as being a historically magnificant military nation...

Sure, they kinda won the hundred years war... but, they only regained french cities even then... no new ground.

anywhoo... Vive La France defendu par les autre pays!

	14-04-2002 09:00									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

But they look great in pink. It's all in the uniforms for some people.

	16-04-2002 01:30									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

NA...Light blue all the way

	16-04-2002 01:59									#7
	Suffering from ads?

quote: "But, otherwise, i must agree. the french aren't noted as being a historically magnificant military nation..."

Mmh, I feel the need to correct some people here, and recall some history...

Backward from now :
- Disregarding the Gulf War, as it was mainly a US military effort ; would be a victory if counted.
- Defeat in Indochine (Viet-nam)
- Defeat in WW2
- Victory in WW1
- A very close defeat in 1870 against Germany.
- Victory during the war for Italy independance against Austria.
- Victory in the Crimean War.
- Defeat against the 8th Coalition* (Napoleon's return)
- Defeat against the 7th Coalition*
- Victory against the 6th Coalition*
- Victory against the 5th Coalition*
- Victory against the 4th Coalition*
- Victory against the 3th Coalition*
- Victory against the 2th Coalition*
- Victory against the 1th Coalition*

* Revolution's and Empire's Wars, in which each time France was nearly alone against a big part of Europe.
Of course, I disregarded all the very small wars, or wars against outclassed opponent when it ended in victory (colonial wars, ie).

Just wanting to remind some history

	16-04-2002 02:15									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I just want to agree with what Akka is saying. The French have a long history of military accomplishment.

They have had hard times recently for a relatively short time, but for a longer time before that they did very good.

However in game terms I can see why the French might be weak militarily. The civs in the game kind of have roles. For instance, there are "good guy" civs, like India and Americans (as in nice peaceful) and "bad guy" civs, like Zulus and Germans (as in aggressive).

I think the French were meant to be Civ3's super culture civ. To that end they have the lowest aggressiveness possible and are probably meant to develop a high culture score peacefully.

This makes sense, since France is kind of synamous to high culture (or at least they want us to think so!).

Making them the culture civ downplays the strong military/nationalistic side of France, but makes sense in game terms: assigning roles to civs.

As to the original post, I agree with 1 and 5; I haven't really experienced 2, 3 or 4 (France was very tough in one of my games).

	16-04-2002 20:22									#9
	Support Apolyton

By saying that France lost the war in the end under Napoleon you might as well say that Germany military sucks cause it lost WWII. And we all know that Germany proved itself as one of the greatest military might in the world!

	16-04-2002 20:40									#10
	Got spare money?

Yeah, but ...

they better shouldn't try to prove that again !

AJ

	16-04-2002 21:51									#11
	The French are wussies Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Calling the perfomance of the French army in WWI is a joke, if it wasn't for the Russians, English, and later Americans helping, the French would have been dead pretty quick. the French performance in WWII is something they should all be ashamed of, how long did it take? two weeks!, not to mention that they didn't even try to attack Germany while the krauts were taking Poland, or did they stand by their allies, the Czechs, when the Germans took the Sudetenland. The French haven't had a decent performance in a war since Napoleon (and he isn't even from real France, he was from Corsica). Anything before that isn't really a "French war", just squabels between different kings. However, in more modern warfare, when the whole population needs to be mobilized and help the war effort, the frech have shown their true color: YELLOW!

	16-04-2002 22:43									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by jinif ... the French performance in WWII is something they should all be ashamed of, how long did it take? two weeks! ...

So tell me, how 'ashamed' should I be?

AJ

PS: How many times did you

quote: get mobilized and help the war effort

?

	16-04-2002 23:00									#13
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Anything before that isn't really a "French war", just squabels between different kings.

I think you can count the monarchy as "France" ... it did take a while for them to get consolidated, but I think it is fair to call that France.

They did have a good history for centuries, up until the Germans got so tough. If their commander during the Franco-Prussian War hadn't been comically incompetant, that one might have gone better. Certainly in World War I they paid the blood price, a huge one, and didn't crack ... some mutiny problems, but they didn't break.

WWII could have been better, yes ... but I think they deserve respect for WWI at least ...

I think the French are reasonably tough. They have always been very very determined to be a strong force militarily, even when they couldn't really afford it.

	16-04-2002 23:15									#14
	Re: The French are wussies Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by jinif Calling the perfomance of the French army in WWI is a joke, if it wasn't for the Russians, English, and later Americans helping, the French would have been dead pretty quick. the French performance in WWII is something they should all be ashamed of, how long did it take? two weeks!, not to mention that they didn't even try to attack Germany while the krauts were taking Poland, or did they stand by their allies, the Czechs, when the Germans took the Sudetenland. The French haven't had a decent performance in a war since Napoleon (and he isn't even from real France, he was from Corsica). Anything before that isn't really a "French war", just squabels between different kings. However, in more modern warfare, when the whole population needs to be mobilized and help the war effort, the frech have shown their true color: YELLOW!

Ah well, I suppose that's just a sad example of the kind of people who feed the "Americans = ignorants" myth.
Well, I could try to argue against this trolling answer, but I think I probably just have to advise you to take a history book and start reading it. It will spare me much efforts, and bring you the warm feeling of discovering something new by yourself.

	17-04-2002 00:28									#15
	French? Support Apolyton

The french are spineless cretins who got exactly what they deserved in both world wars...Imagine the Magineaux line...what a stupid strategy to protect themselves from the Nazis. Soldiers stopped marching into cannon and machine gun fire after ww1..why did the morons from france think it would be different?

The french are merde....and cowards.

I think Firaxis did a brilliant job placing them in pink to match their tutus and cowardice.

aurevior monsieur buttwipe

	17-04-2002 01:34									#16
	Support Apolyton

I agree, the French are basically spineless. The were completely overrun in WWII, even with the help of the British. When the USA finally liberated them, they were not even fully cooperative. Even in recent years, they've been less than cooperative in the USA's efforts to stall terrorism and deal with people like Saddam Hussien. Not only are they military weaklings, they're unappreciative.

	17-04-2002 03:01									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Ah well, I suppose that's just a sad example of the kind of people who feed the "Americans = ignorants" myth. Well, I could try to argue against this trolling answer, but I think I probably just have to advise you to take a history book and start reading it. It will spare me much efforts, and bring you the warm feeling of discovering something new by yourself.

Instead of just calling me ignorant why don't you try to diprove one of my points? Are you saying that the French would have been able to defeat the Germans in WWI without so much help from other countries? Are you trying to say that you believe it was good and just of the French to ignore their allies, the Czechs, instead of appeasing the Germans by letting them take it over? Do you believe that letting the Germans invade Poland, Norway, and Denmark and even trying to invade Germany was a good tactical decision? maybe you are the one who needs to start reading some more history books.

	17-04-2002 03:08									#18
	Tired of ads?

Hmmm... ah yes, the traditional civ-flaming thread... I'll stick to the topic and just say that I've seen the French rip apart the English in one of my games. They samshed city after city with longbowmen, attacking from high ground and with large numbers, even though the English had equivalent tech. Too bad their UU is worthless...

	17-04-2002 03:30									#19
	Re: French? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by danimal The french are spineless cretins who got exactly what they deserved in both world wars...Imagine the Magineaux line...what a stupid strategy to protect themselves from the Nazis. Soldiers stopped marching into cannon and machine gun fire after ww1..why did the morons from france think it would be different? The french are merde....and cowards. I think Firaxis did a brilliant job placing them in pink to match their tutus and cowardice. aurevior monsieur buttwipe

Ummm, right. I feel a bit dumb in even responding to this, but...

The maginoit line did _exactly_ what it was supposed to do, funnel the germans through belgium. What the French neglected to do was plan for stopping the Germans once they invaded Belgium...

	17-04-2002 04:45									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Are you saying that the French would have been able to defeat the Germans in WWI without so much help from other countries?

Well I don't think France could have defeated Germany without help during WWI ... but neither could anyone else!

That seems like a silly argument to me. You could just insert Britain, Russia, or America in place of France, like so:

'Are you saying that the British would have been able to defeat the Germans in WWI without so much help from other countries?'

No one could have ... so what?

quote: Are you trying to say that you believe it was good and just of the French to ignore their allies, the Czechs, instead of appeasing the Germans by letting them take it over? Do you believe that letting the Germans invade Poland, Norway, and Denmark and even trying to invade Germany was a good tactical decision?

This is a better point. Appeasement was of course wrong. The Phoney War was a very bad move (non-move actually) on the part of France and Britain. However at least they did draw the line at some point and actually declare war on Germany. If they were really cowardly they would have just let Poland fall without the DOW.

Just how I see it.

	17-04-2002 07:23									#21
	French? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Andrew Cory The maginoit line did exactly what it was supposed to do, funnel the germans through belgium. What the French neglected to do was plan for stopping the Germans once they invaded Belgium...

Actually the French never thought Germany would invade Belgium because it was a neutral country. The Maginot Line was designed to stop the Germans from attacking like they did in WWI.


Thus Endith the Lesson



KATN

	17-04-2002 07:30									#22
	Re: French? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by lorddread Actually the French never thought Germany would invade Belgium because it was a neutral country. The Maginot Line was designed to stop the Germans from attacking like they did in WWI. Thus Endith the Lesson KATN

That is actualy a debatable point, but kinda immaterial to the real point which is this: The maginot line worked perfectly. The germans loved it so much that they tried to copy it up and down the coast, and make "fortress Europe"...

	17-04-2002 07:57									#23
	Fortress Europe Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Andrew Cory That is actualy a debatable point, but kinda immaterial to the real point which is this: The maginot line worked perfectly. The germans loved it so much that they tried to copy it up and down the coast, and make "fortress Europe"...

Actually the Fortress Europe was a good idea. The problem was by the time it was finished, there weren't enough men to staff it. A better use of the Maginot Line was in Italy during the penesula campaign. The Germans built 3 defensive maginot type defensive belts across Italy stalling the campaigns for about 8 months.

	17-04-2002 08:36									#24
	Re: Fortress Europe Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by lorddread Actually the Fortress Europe was a good idea. The problem was by the time it was finished, there weren't enough men to staff it. A better use of the Maginot Line was in Italy during the penesula campaign. The Germans built 3 defensive maginot type defensive belts across Italy stalling the campaigns for about 8 months.

Right! Again, the maginot line was a good idea, the french failure to take full stratigic use of what they had built was not.

This began with a comment "Imagine the Magineaux line...what a stupid strategy to protect themselves from the Nazis. Soldiers stopped marching into cannon and machine gun fire after ww1..why did the morons from france think it would be different?", which is patently untrue. Had the germans walked into it, they would have been decimated. As it happens, they _did_ do somthing simmilar in Russia. And got minced...

	17-04-2002 09:35									#25
	Fortress Europe Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The idea behind the Maginot Line was stupid at best. The French could not see Germany invading through Belgium, because of the Ardens Forrest. Since no one had ever successfully invaded through the forrest, they thought it was impenetrable.

Dumb, Dumb, Dumb

Should have read Sun Tsu

	17-04-2002 09:55									#26
	Re: Fortress Europe Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by lorddread The idea behind the Maginot Line was stupid at best. The French could not see Germany invading through Belgium, because of the Ardens Forrest. Since no one had ever successfully invaded through the forrest, they thought it was impenetrable. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Should have read Sun Tsu

Did the line work? Well, to answer a rhetorical question with a historical one: did the germans attack it? No, they didn't, so yes, the line worked. Did the french fail to see the next obvious step; that the Germans would attack through belgium? Well, that is a matter of historical debate. And let's not forget england's role in all this; they fought with France, and gave up france in two weeks as well...

	17-04-2002 10:37									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

In the Game, I've seen a French AI completely dominate the others militarily on a number of occasions. In real life though..[cough]... hey, at least the French didn't get beat by Ethiopia. Remember, when discussing pathetic European militaries, Italy has to come first and foremost. At least France has had some military strength in the past 500 years. Italians have to go all the way back to Rome to find something that isn't embarrising.

	17-04-2002 17:05									#28
	You spell it maginoit..I spelll it magineaux Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Any way you spell it...it ends up the same...LOSER

I will take the French Millitary seriously if they ever win a war on their own without the USA bailing them out...furthermore the french may fight more agressively if their women start shaving their legs and armpits

	17-04-2002 20:06									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

perhaps they should bomb a bunch of peasants back into the stone age as the americans did in vietnam or in afghanistan to convince you ???

	17-04-2002 20:21									#30
	Re: Fortress Europe Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by lorddread The idea behind the Maginot Line was stupid at best. The French could not see Germany invading through Belgium, because of the Ardens Forrest. Since no one had ever successfully invaded through the forrest, they thought it was impenetrable. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb Should have read Sun Tsu

This is wrong on so many levels.

(1) The Maginot Line did exactly what it was supposed to do. It forced the Germans to go through Belgium and Holland to get at France. This meant that the French instantly gained two more allies, and guarenteed that Britian would also be involved. The German paratroopers and more importantly the air transport arm took extremely heavy losses on the assault on Holland, which had big effects on the rest of the war.

(2) The French planned for a German invasion of Belguim, it was the cornerstone of their whole strategy; advance to meet the Germans in Belgium, so that the war is fought there instead of being fought in (and devestating) France like in WWI

(3) The Ardennes sector. The French undermanned this sector because of the Meuse river immediately behind it. They figured that the Germans would have to pause once reaching the river for several days in order to move heavy artillery and supplies through the Ardennes, and that would buy them time to shift reserves from elsewhere.

What happened was that the Germans did not pause but started crossing imediately, using Stukas in place of that heavy artillery. And so the French plan came apart.

NOBODY, including the Germans themselves knew for sure that such close coordination was possible in 1940. The Germans gambled that it would work, and it did.

Had the Germans NOT been able to coordinate their forces, we'd be making fun of those dumb Germans that invaded France through a forest and over a river and got their asses kicked.

Austin