14-04-2002 06:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger ...so they kicked me until I stopped trying to tear up their flag.

It's not the flag, it's the things the flag represents... I'm with KH on this one

	14-04-2002 06:08									#32
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Exactly. Right on Hueij.

	14-04-2002 06:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij First they came for the Jews... They cried for help but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew... Then they came for the kommies... They also cried for help, but I'm not a kommie... Next were the gypsies... But I'm not a gypsie... When they came for me, I cried for help... But there was no one left to hear...

First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I am not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I am not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I am not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, and there was no one left to help me.

Pastor Niemoller

	14-04-2002 06:10									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Two typical observations: 1. For Americans, property is more important than ethics. 2. Naitonal Socialism and/or Fascism aren't all that bad for Americans. Nothing new after so many of our Americans have admitted to preferring fascism over communism. I'd be ashamed if I discovered my own handle next to one of those posts. I stand up and say it

How many people do you think live in the US? And out of all those people, you have managed to sum up these ideas from a sampling of how many?

Tell me. Does it make you feel better that in Germany, the goverment is afraid to allow people to express their views. Is the goverment afraid that thousands would join the right wing movements if they were allowed to?

	14-04-2002 06:12									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij It's not the flag, it's the things the flag represents... I'm with KH on this one

The flag represents what they believe to be right. They are allowed to wave that flag regardless of its meaning.

Similarly, a homosexual has every right to put a rainbow sticker on their vehicle and cannot have the sticker ripped from their car by person or persons who believe homosexuality is wrong.

Freedom of speech can't be one sided.

	14-04-2002 06:13									#36
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quote: The difference is - we learn from history, you don't. We've had a democracy destroyed by voters because it was not properly protected, now it is protected. Call it a false democracy, but at least we (and the rest of Europe and in the long term the world) won't be rueld by fascists that easily again

Ecthelion, where are you from? Germany?

	14-04-2002 06:17									#37
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As for the topic


They were expressing their rights to march and be heard

He was expressing his right to tell that to go to hell and **** off

All in all, thats the way things are supposed to go.


Here when you have KKK marches, you always have much larger counter marches. Which works out really nicely.

But the main thing is that both sides are allowed to march. Unlike some places.

	14-04-2002 06:19									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber But the main thing is that both sides are allowed to march. Unlike some places.

	14-04-2002 06:19									#39
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Paiktis, thanks for giving the real quote. :d:

quote: Similarly, a homosexual has every right to put a rainbow sticker on their vehicle and cannot have the sticker ripped from their car by person or persons who believe homosexuality is wrong.

Homosexuals never ever marched thru my street, kicked in doors and took away my Jewish neighbours to exterminate them... I'm not American, free speech has it's limits over here and rightly so...

	14-04-2002 06:21									#40
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quote: They were expressing their rights to march and be heard He was expressing his right to tell that to go to hell and **** off All in all, thats the way things are supposed to go

Exactly. He didn't grab a gun and start shooting the ******; he walked in and grabbed a flag.

Those of you who have trouble seeing the difference are "goddamn liberal candyasses".

	14-04-2002 06:22									#41
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Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

Remember that. Words are just that, words. We may have applied meaning to them, but in the end they shouldn't harm you in any serious manner.

	14-04-2002 06:26									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. Remember that. Words are just that, words. We may have applied meaning to them, but in the end they shouldn't harm you in any serious manner.

Problem with that is that it isn't true... People still get horrible nightmares whenever bald shaven kids demonstrate while waving certain flags... Maybe when the last Auschwitz survivor is dead...

	14-04-2002 06:27									#43
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Exactly. He didn't grab a gun and start shooting the ******; he walked in and grabbed a flag. Those of you who have trouble seeing the difference are "goddamn liberal candyasses".

that depends on whose flag it was. If he didn't own the flag, he shouldn't have destroyed it. If he did, than yeah, he had every right to and was expressing his free speech. Either way the group had no right to assault him.

quote: Homosexuals never ever marched thru my street, kicked in doors and took away my Jewish neighbours to exterminate them... I'm not American, free speech has it's limits over here and rightly so...

Makes no difference about what 'fascists' have done in the past. And I'm willing to bet a small fortune that these marchers were not the ones who marched through your street, kicking in doors, and taking away Jewish neighbors.

	14-04-2002 06:31									#44
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quote: And I'm willing to bet a small fortune that these marchers were not the ones who marched through your street, kicking in doors, and taking away Jewish neighbors.

You are right, those marchers didn't... But these marchers march in the same beat...

	14-04-2002 06:34									#45
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So, as long as their opinion disagrees with yours, and in the past people with that opinion have hurt other people, it's OK to destroy their property, and otherwise harass them. Hmmm, one group persecuting another for their beliefs, sounds a little familiar...

	14-04-2002 06:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Problem with that is that it isn't true... People still get horrible nightmares whenever bald shaven kids demonstrate while waving certain flags... Maybe when the last Auschwitz survivor is dead...

I can understand that. But IMO, when the government moves to censor those groups, prevents them from marching, or outlaws them, they give them a certain amout of empowerment. But I do realize that for some, watching them would be painful. Sometimes though the best way to deal them is let them talk. Let people find out exactly what they have to say and how hateful they really are. People are either going to agree or disagree.


Last year in a small town of about 4 thousand near mine, the KKK staged a rally and march. They were allowed to march through town and make their hateful speaches. But they wasn't alone. Counter protestors, white and black held their own march and basically shouted them down. Most of the KKK members simply left because they were being drowned out. In that town, they found out that they had no following what so ever.

	14-04-2002 06:41									#47
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I support the legal right of BOTH groups in this case. The guy who tore up the flag should be commended and admired, but the nazi b*astards should not be stopped from marching.

	14-04-2002 06:43									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij You are right, those marchers didn't... But these marchers march in the same beat...

Is that a reason to take away their rights to property, though?

	14-04-2002 06:43									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone So, as long as their opinion disagrees with yours, and in the past people with that opinion have hurt other people, it's OK to destroy their property, and otherwise harass them. Hmmm, one group persecuting another for their beliefs, sounds a little familiar...

That's too easy... I admit I'm kind of ambigious (sp?) about all of this, but should you allow groups, that if they ever get into power would end free speech and exterminate certain people just because of their ethnic background, to openly demonstrate their ideology? And please remember, over here we have seen fascism in action...

	14-04-2002 06:46									#50
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quote: If he didn't own the flag, he shouldn't have destroyed it

So he should be brought up on charges for attempting to destroy a flag that can only be of extremely limited monetary value?

Don't make me laugh. He didn't torch their meeting hall, he didn't beat them to a bloody pulp. He stepped in, grabbed a flag and vigorously expressed his displeasure. Your reaction is silly and overblown.

	14-04-2002 06:46									#51
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quote: The guy who tore up the flag should be commended and admired

So long as there is no official special treatment, it's fine if you want to admire the guy, who cares who admires who. What shouldn't happen is any court rulings that provide leniency for him based on the ideaology of the marching group. Once a precedent is set that you can harass groups with unpopular idealogies you never know what may happen. It would be far better to treat this as a normal case without bringing about any mention of ideology because if he gets off light just for that, then, like I said, it sets a bad precedent.

	14-04-2002 06:46									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij That's too easy... I admit I'm kind of ambigious (sp?) about all of this, but should you allow groups, that if they ever get into power would end free speech and exterminate certain people just because of their ethnic background, to openly demonstrate their ideology? And please remember, over here we have seen fascism in action...

Should we also disallow people to hold rallies for communism because of the bad things that happened under communism in Europe?

	14-04-2002 06:47									#53
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quote: Is that a reason to take away their rights to property, though?

We're talking about a g****** flag here, it's not like the guy burnt a house down...

KH, help!!

	14-04-2002 06:48									#54
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They're being silly. Ignore them.

	14-04-2002 06:48									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone So long as there is no official special treatment, it's fine if you want to admire the guy, who cares who admires who. What shouldn't happen is any court rulings that provide leniency for him based on the ideaology of the marching group. Once a precedent is set that you can harass groups with unpopular idealogies you never know what may happen. It would be far better to treat this as a normal case without bringing about any mention of ideology because if he gets off light just for that, then, like I said, it sets a bad precedent.

Yes - and his right to free speech is more important than the maybe $20 he owes the a$$holes.

	14-04-2002 06:50									#56
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse So he should be brought up on charges for attempting to destroy a flag that can only be of extremely limited monetary value?

Punishment should fit the crime. He should be made to pay for the monetary value of the flag, and also be subject to any punishment in accordance with laws dealing with destruction of property.

Would you be saying the same thing if a KKK member took an American flag, or better yet, a flag with "African America pride" on it, from an African American girl, and ripped it to shreds in front of her?

quote: Don't make me laugh. He didn't torch their meeting hall, he didn't beat them to a bloody pulp. He stepped in, grabbed a flag and vigorously expressed his displeasure. Your reaction is silly and overblown.

How is it overblown? How have I overblown anything? I don't even know if it was his flag or not!

	14-04-2002 06:52									#57
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Listen, if you hold up a sign claiming that "Jesus was a fag" outside a fundie church, you can expect to get your sign taken away from you. You start waving a swastika and somebody will trample it. It's low-end stuff, and no court in the world will take the time to look at it, nor should they. Beat somebody's brains in for something they say and I'll put you in jail myself.

	14-04-2002 06:53									#58
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Does that mean I can take other people's banners, flags, instruments, floats, etc. and try to destroy them? Where do you draw lines? Whenever it's convenient? I'm willing to bet that had the situation been reversed and this was a parade that pro gay rights then there would be a huge witch hunt with demands for reparations on whatever was attacked plus the full extent of the law.

	14-04-2002 06:53									#59
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quote: Should we also disallow people to hold rallies for communism because of the bad things that happened under communism in Europe?

Sorry Orange, I'm not even trying to give a serious answer on this one. By asking this you show that you haven't got a clue about the sentiments in Western Europe about Communism and Nazism. We didn't have a Gulag but we did have Belsen...

	14-04-2002 06:58									#60
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Listen, if you hold up a sign claiming that "Jesus was a fag" outside a fundie church, you can expect to get your sign taken away from you.

Maybe you can expect that, but that does not justify the sign being taken from you.

quote: You start waving a swastika and somebody will trample it.

Though legally, they shouldn't. I'm with you that Nazism is wrong, where I separate is where you say that someone cannot promote Nazism because we feel it's wrong.

quote: It's low-end stuff, and no court in the world will take the time to look at it, nor should they. Beat somebody's brains in for something they say and I'll put you in jail myself.

Freedom of speech cannot simply extend to those things that society recognizes as 'correct'. Else how would any change (good or bad) be promoted?