16-04-2002 03:52									#1
	UUs In Relation To A Civ's GA Put an end to popups!

Just some random thoughs on the tread's topic...

Roman Legionairy
Golden Age was Pax Romana, following and during the reign of the first Caesar. Now, the Legionaries by then had been around since... at least the Punic Wars but I don't know when exact they origonated (I've head that the Legions developed about 600BC following the findings by the Romans that the Phalanx didn't work in alpine terrain, which Italy had a lot of). Anyways, since victories by ancient era units don't automatically trigger a Golden Age I guess the Legion follows the UU<->GA theory I have.

Greek Hoplite
Now, their is two periods of Greek prominence. First came right after the Greek victories of the second Persian war over Xerxes. If you consider this the Greek golden age then the obvious choice is the Hoplite. The other period of Greek prosperity was the Hellanistic Age, following Alexander III's conquests. Since he won due to his cavalry (bear with me...) then the choice for UU would be the Companion cavalry unit (Horseman w/ xtra Attack?). You could go either way, but Hoplite fits the Greek traits a lot better.

German Panzer
This I have a bone to pick with. Now, it is a matter of opinion, but I don't call the cold war a German gold period. They weren't really a country. Close, but divided on some big issues. The German Federal Republic did preatty well though, so perhaps would could make a case for the Panzer to fit the UU<->GA thing. But other golden times of Germany was either the period between unification or the feudal empires of Charlemagne, Otto I, or Barbarossa. Perhaps an improved Knight?

Chinese Rider
This is a decent one. China has had a very long history, and pinning down one small time at which it was at the height of its glory is hard to do. But the time in which Kublai Khan ruled probably fits the best. The choice of the Riders is obvious in relation to the Mongol Horse Archers, but it fits well with the dates.

Japanese Samurai
The Samurai seems to show up right after the end of the Yamato times and the beginning of the feudal society led by the Shoguns at Edo, and if you consider this the time of Japan's Golden Age then your Samurai fits. Now, unlike Germany, the time after WWII was a rather good time for Japan (in some ways [bear with me...]). Perhaps and improved Aircraft Carrier, Battleships (a Yamato?), or improved Fighter (Zero?).

Indian War Elephant
I don't want to really mess around with the Indian UU, for I don't really know enough about the history of the sub-continent to pass jugdment.

Aztec Jaguar Warrior
Now, I do not know exactly when the Aztec Empire was first formed, but it was only a few hundred years I believe. The Aztecs never really got advanced technologies, so keeping a low level UU fits in with them well, considering they used a force of en masse infantry (something similar to Jags) to conquer a nice little empire in modern Mexico.

Iroquois Mounted Warrior
This is a piece of crap. The Iroquois almost never used mounted troops due to the woodlands enviroments they lived in. The golden period of Iroquois was sometime after European contact, and as a lot of people said, they could hold off expansion into their lands. I'd like to see a unit called the "Brave" (or something) that's either a faster Archer or even a Musketman (I don't know if they used muskets, but I would imagine so...).

Egyptian War Chariot
Egypt is another of those really long lasting civilizations. Their golden age would obviously be sometime before Christ, but when exactly I don't know (I really don't think the Ptolemic times were a Golden Age). According to a few PBS shows I've watched Ramases II maintained a massive force of Chariots for war, lending me to think that about that time was the Golden Age. The GA<->UU fits well here overall.

Babylonian Bowman
This is easy to figure out. Either the reign of Hammurabi or Nebucenazzer II (spelled wrong, I know...). Either of which fits with the Bowman. Next question.

Russian Cossack
This is another persective one. The Cossacks would first see action either in the wars with Turkey, the 1812 invasion, or the conquest to the east (or is it west?). All three of these were about the same time. Is the period of Metternich the Russian golden age? Maybe... I'd opt for the period after WWII in which the Russians were perhaps the most powerful nation on earth for a short while. That means that a WWII unit would trigger the Golden Age. I'm think a T-34 (Tank w/ xtra Attack or maybe Movement).

American F-15
The description of the F-15E Strike Eagle on www.civ3.com seems to suggest that the American golden age would be triggered by the victory in the Gulf War. Yes, the 90's could be a Golden Age. Another alternative could be the Cold War times, parallel with the Russians. A Marine, Paratrooper, Bomber (B-17), or even Carrier could be used there. Another is a unit from after the 1775 Revolution, a time of territorial expansion (maybe a golden age...). A Minuteman perhaps (improved Musketman or Rifleman)?

French Musketeer
Musketeers accoring to the sites description are the royal guards of Louis XIV. This age of absolutism really isn't a golden age (from what I heard...). I'm out of ideas in this one...

Persian Immortal
Persian golden age was basically it's whole short (by historical standards) history up to Alexander's conquest. The Immortal fits in really well. Nothing more to be said.

Zulu Impi
I don't know much Zulu history but I assume this is good.

British Man Of War
The British golden age was the Industrial Revolution were about 1/4 of the world's land and 1/ 3 of the world's population where British. The Golden Age was triggered by the victories of Nelson and Wellington over Napolean. The Man Of War fits the time period. I've heard of perhaps allowing a Longbowman UU, but the War Of The Roses was hardly a Golden Age.

Please excuse some historical benders and numerous spelling and grammatical errors. Thank you.

	16-04-2002 04:44									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

About French musketeers : Absolutism can be considered as a French GA, since 17th & 18th centuries witnessed France at its peak (in terms of cultural and economic influence in the western world). If the GA really was to be warlike, a unique rifleman (Napoleonic soldier) would fit :
During the Revolution, France was the first country to use massive conscription, and first invented nationalism (Germans invented their distinct nationalism shortly after). This nationalistic era lasted ca. 20 years, from 1793 to 1815, with the Napoleonic defeat at Waterloo.

	16-04-2002 10:35									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

About the Panzer: Germany was the leading power in the end of the 19th century, (before 1871, Prussia.) A golden age then would seem more likely to me. For Hitler's Germany, they'd had to loose terrain, totally be blown to pieces, into recession, then rise again, grow a bit, returning to prominence. The time Hitler's Germany was the leading country has been short: something like 1937-1943.
The second reich had a much longer period: 1871-1916 (or even 1850-1916)

	18-04-2002 04:25									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

About the Cossack: The period after WW2 was a time with a lot of hardship, and the political situation was one of a stagnation. If I had to choose, I'd locate the Russian "Golden Age" in the 100 years before the French revolution. That was the time where the Russian empire expanded vastly, colonizing Siberia and bringing scores of nationalities under the rule of the Czars.

IMHO the period following the civil war were the golden age of the USA - unprecedented industrial growth, vast immigration, lotsa territories becoming states and most notably the settlement of the west really sped up.
But if you want to create a point in time where the Americans really start overunning the world, it ought to be the arrival of the first tanks. Quality tanks really aren't anything that the American forces in WW2 were renowned for, but the UU could be a cheaper tank unit called Sherman tank. Shermans were produced in enormous quantities and were a very visible sign of the vast economic superiority of the USA over the rest of the world.

	18-04-2002 04:35									#5
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Beren The second reich had a much longer period: 1871-1916 (or even 1850-1916)

[smartass]
Actually the second Reich can be pinpointed very easily: It lasted from January 18th 1871 (Wilhelm I. proclaimed German Emperor) to November 9th 1918 (Wilhelm II. abdicated the throne)
[/smartass]

	18-04-2002 04:44									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The Chinese Rider should be uniquely CHINESE, and although not common to all Chinese dynasties, it is very typical if the great T'ang Dynasty of the 8th century which was highly militaristic and expansionist with masive cavalry forces that even defeated Muslim armies. So there are no "Mongols" involved with that UU.

Alexander "won with his cavalry"?? Wrong. They were too small in number. He won with his phalanxes, which were in that period extremely offensive-oriented and all but unstoppable, especially the Macedonian version. If we could make scenarios in this game - and we can't - there could be a 4.3. or even 5.3 Macedonian/Greek phalanx, as thgere was in the Civ 2 Alexander scenario, if you recall it.

The English longbowman should be a UU; everyone else should get a crossbowman. And that unit was around before the War of the Roses.

MOW - should be increased in strength and speed, given blitz capability, and come after Navigation. (Hell, all naval units less galley should be stronger).

Iroquois are an imaginary generic American Indian civ, so don't worry about it.

I would NOT describe Stalin's Soviet Union as "A Golden Age".

If America had one Golden Age it came long before the F-15. Maybe after WWII, maybe before. A useless UU - change it to something such as a fast musketeer.

Musketeer. The game has too few units. The musketters of the early 1600's were very different from those of, say, 1800 when muskets not only had faster firing procedures and better firing mechanisms, but could carry a bayonet. Firaxis needed a "Musket Infantry" unit - I have Edited musketters to 4.6.1, so these should be 6.7.1.

What else is there but a Zulu impi?? They had one type of infantry. If Firaxis wanted to be smart they'd have picked a different African king, perhaps Menelek of Ethiopia in the 1800's.

	18-04-2002 10:40									#7
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Herr David [smartass] Actually the second Reich can be pinpointed very easily: It lasted from January 18th 1871 (Wilhelm I. proclaimed German Emperor) to November 9th 1918 (Wilhelm II. abdicated the throne) [/smartass]

Well, I ment when its golden age was. The periods I mentioned were these where Prussia/Germany was the leading power in Europe.

	18-04-2002 16:21									#8
	Re: UUs In Relation To A Civ's GA Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Signa Just some random thoughs on the tread's topic... I'm think a T-34 (Tank w/ xtra Attack or maybe Movement).

Try extra defense, the forte of the T-34 was it's armour. The Germans did not have anything short of an 88MM AA gun firing armour piercing rounds that could penetrate a T-34 frontally.

	20-04-2002 08:00									#9
	Suffering from ads?

The cossacks, though independent, were Russia's allies in war throughout its early history...there 1st extensive fighting (though I'm no expert) would probably be at the begainning of Peter the Great's reign, which could be considered a GA...

	20-04-2002 08:05									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: there could be a 4.3. or even 5.3 Macedonian/Greek phalanx, as thgere was in the Civ 2 Alexander scenario, if you recall it.

I thought they were 3.1 in the scenario

quote: I would NOT describe Stalin's Soviet Union as "A Golden Age".

It could be argued that even though it wasn't a GA by historical standards, the higher production and stuff of a civ GA fits. BUt that's wrong. THe production was just a bunch of poprushed factories

	20-04-2002 18:54									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Coracle Iroquois are an imaginary generic American Indian civ, so don't worry about it.

A simple change of UU (and great leaders) would right that.
The UU for the Iroquois, related to their golden age, should IMHO be a musketman that treats all squares as roads.

	21-04-2002 22:40									#12
	Support Apolyton

Now Let's Sum Up What I Have Heard:

Rome- Legion should be 4.2.1
Greece- Hoplite works
Germany- something related to the Second Reich
China- some sorta of Rider cavalry
Japan- after a little research the Samurai is perfect
India- still not enough info
Aztec Empire- no comments
Iroquios- Brave? 2.4.2 replaces Musketman
Egypt- just perfect
Babylon- no changes
Russia- guess the Cossack works after all
America- a WWII unit?
France- keep it the Musketeer
Persia- Immortal should be 3.3.1
Zululand- no complains
Britian- leaning towards Longbowman?

	27-04-2002 07:01									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't think they need a different unit, just that the unit should be 2.2.2 instead of the 1.2.2 it is now. Also for the Iroqois I suggest a unit that replaces the longbowman instead, a "hunter"? They were good at ambushes and fast on there feet, so 3.2.2 maybe? Also maybe have a pumped up Destroyer for the americans? After the bombing of pearl harbor those and the aircraft carriers became the basis of the fleet, and they used them to great efficeny hunting down u-boats and other things. It'd be nice if each civ had one unique land and air/sea unit.

	27-04-2002 12:26									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'd say:
Rome-Legionary
Greece-Hoplite
Germany-2nd Reichish
China-Rider
Japan-Samurai
India-War Elephant
Aztec-Jaguar Warrior
Iroqouis-Brave
Egypt-War Chariot
Babylon-Bowman
Russia-Cossack
America-Marine(Make it US-exclusive)
France-Musketeer
Persia-Immortal
Zululand-Impi
England-Longbowman(Make longbowman crossbowman)

	09-06-2002 01:14									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Germany - Landsknecht (Foot soldier replace Medieval Infantry or foot knight) after Knights GA XIV-XV Holy Empire age
America - Ranger (replaces Marine) GA late XIX- early XX after Civil War
England - no changes GA XVI-XVIII Age of fleet, Newton, Shakespear

	09-06-2002 03:17									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have to say that throughout the cold war, much of America's strength was derrived from its naval assets. More specifically, I think American's mastered the use of the aircraft carrier. I think America should get an aircraft carrier that can carry 1 extra plane or have one extra movement or both.