17-04-2002 05:08									#1
	Salon.com on mods Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It may be about FPS but I think many of us will still find it an interesting read...

http://salon.com/tech/feature/2002/...ding/index.html

(Credit goes to cragthehack for posting this in Civ3-General)

	17-04-2002 16:24									#2
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Nice article, I find it a bit gutting that the FPS genre gets this mass appeal where as the games i like(CTP/CIV/tbs etc)dont. Especially as i manage an Internet cafe. Have thought about upgrading the pc's to be able to run FPS games(to make the money!) - and maybe trying to run an AOE/Civ/ctp/Eu2 session. The reason that FPS gets the attention is, i'm thinking, because of the nature of the games - its very easy to pick-up and play and doesn't really require a huge investment in time/organising to get into it. CTP etc on the other hand are much more demanding on commitment. Then again the level of depth of gameplay(i find) is very different - i like games that require an investment of time and effort(as long as the game is complex and good).
You really need this mass appeal to start to get the money(sponsors/companies) intrested in a game - i guess as most kids first exposure to games these days is through a games console then 'dumbing down' of games in general is a natural progression?
So will you as Modders of CTP2 be in a position to get some proper money for your efforts? Probably not but if there is a movement in the industry in this direction ,then at least it will(hopefully) encourage the game companies to think about releasing moddable games. And in the long-term that's good for everyone who mods.
Lets hope so, or we will be forced into buying (delibrately) badly programmed software and paying for upgrades(sounds familiar maybe?) later as the games 'get fixed'.

	17-04-2002 19:33									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It was a good read - and from a logic standpoint, gaming companies should encourage modification by making the process as easy as possible. The casual gamer will pick up a game, play it for a few months and then move on to another game. Modifications extend the shelf life of a game by keeping that player's interest.

However, it really depends on whether the base game is good to begin with though. As easy as it is to mod CTP2, I feel that Activision shot themselves in the foot by releasing a series of games that were overly passive (both CTP1 and CTP2). What I find interesting is that even though CTP1 sold well, CTP2 did not. Compare the sales numbers of civ3 to CTP2 and you would be shocked - even though we all know which is the better game now. I do believe that CTP1 did well because it was able to ride the coattails of the 'Civ' name. CTP2 had to ride the coattails of it's own name - hence the poor sales.

I played only one single-player game of both CTP1 and CTP2, and then moved onto the Mods. I am grateful for the work that the Modders put into the games, because it kept me playing CTP. (At the same time, as much as I would like to have as much access to the CTP coding, Activision is well within their rights to limit aspects of the code.)

I do give credit to Firaxis to releasing a more difficult base game. The early reports from the civ3 community were talking about the difficulty in mastering the AI - these reports hardly ever came from the CTP1-CTP2 community regarding the default game. Couple that with the 'Sid/civ' mystique and you can anticipate great sales. However, the limits that Firaxis placed on the Editor/scripting language is one that will prevent civ3 from maintaining a long-term base of players. If Firaxis does release the Editor though, you can bet that the CTP2 Modding community goes back to being a ghost town.

Another thing to note - the game market is vastly oversaturated with choices - and most game sales are to the casual player, who may not want to go through the trouble of downloading Mods because their interest level shifts so fast. All I have to do is look at my son - he plays most of the games he gets for a few weeks and then moves on to something else. He may stick with one game for the long term, but that is a rarity.

Go back a few years and look at the game competition civ1/civ2 had, and compare it to the competition today. There are a lot more choices now - and a lot more genres to choose from.

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor So will you as Modders of CTP2 be in a position to get some proper money for your efforts? Probably not but if there is a movement in the industry in this direction, then at least it will (hopefully) encourage the game companies to think about releasing moddable games. And in the long-term that's good for everyone who mods.

I never did this for the money, I just love to be able to get into a game and make it what I want it to be. I spent a lot of time making my own board games in the past, and to be able to take the concepts that I wanted to execute in that format, but couldn't, due to the limitations in that format is a dream come true.

At the same time, it is nice to be able to sit down to a game that you buy and play it without having to modify it. To be honest, I do not see myself investing the time into modifying another game though - if Firaxis releases a comprehensive Editor, I probably would not mod civ3.

I do hope that the attitude 'Release the game, and let the Modders fix it' does not become the industry norm though.

	18-04-2002 00:03									#4
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Modifications extend the shelf life of a game by keeping that player's interest.

I think there are two different views on this, at least from the game producers view(and going by the way games are published). Some see the value of extending the game this way(the Half-Life route), and the others adopt (IMO) the more synical
approach and try to sell games like movies - lots of hype and a constant supply of newer 'better' titles.Which is more successful? No idea, but i know which makes me think twice about buying another game..........

quote: I never did this for the money, I just love to be able to get into a game and make it what I want it to be. I spent a lot of time making my own board games in the past, and to be able to take the concepts that I wanted to execute in that format, but couldn't, due to the limitations in that format is a dream come true.

I used to design my own board games too! Get some friends around and see if they could break it. used to get my inspiration from the 'Fighting Fantasy' type of books(sci-fi too).
I probably am more at home with pens/scissors/glue than code

	18-04-2002 02:52									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

CoT,
After having had many discussions with all kinds of gamers, I think most people play FPS because you don't have to *think*: just shoot everything that moves (well, almost everything)... a quick and easy way to get rid of your daily frustrations. Playing a game which requires you to think, plan, solve problems only worses frustrations for many people... far too much like real-life, I guess...

I agree with everything you said, Dave.


Hey, do you guys suppose we could forward this article to Activision accompanied by a request for the CtP2 source code?

	19-04-2002 18:07									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Hey, do you guys suppose we could forward this article to Activision accompanied by a request for the CtP2 source code?

At least it is worth a trial maybe we need hundret trials, but in the end we could be successful.

-Martin

	19-04-2002 23:01									#7
	Tired of ads?

I'm impressed once again at the sheer scale of the mods. With Civ games, it is hard to completely change the game like that article mentions making a flying FPS game, because it is much more structured. I think the closest we have come to a complete makeover was Dale's idea for a city or company-building game, where cities were departments, and so forth. I think Pedrunn's space 'scenario' will be great as well, as it really shows how adaptable the game engine is.