17-04-2002 10:26									#1
	Call in the US Army Increase the size of your Attachments

Suggestion to Mark, Ming, and all the Apolyton guys:

Call in the Army.

I really mean the advanced study groups at all of the (Western) military / espionage / sociopolitical think tanks.

They dig this stuff... and some of'em get paid for playing around with games. Really.

I would love to see some of there contributions to the forums.

	17-04-2002 10:29									#2
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I didn't know that they played Civ though. I have heard of the New Zealand army playing Serious Sam.

	17-04-2002 10:31									#3
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The Canadian Army plays LSLarry

	17-04-2002 10:42									#4
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You guys would be amazed.

In the late 80s I did crypto for the USMC, and some of my friends have stayed in the game... they play EVERYTHING.

The USMC actually had a custom version of MP DOOM developed for small unit tactics practice (I think; could have been some other FPS, but I'm pretty sure).

I would be shocked if some of the scenario planners don't play Civ. If they don't, they should.

	17-04-2002 12:20									#5
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There's a theory that pulling the trigger a thousand times in computer games reduces the hesitation when the weapon is pointed for real at a real human.

Not surprising that armed forces would encourage 'play'.

	17-04-2002 14:10									#6
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But it also dehumanizes the combat. Reports from Desert Storm revealed that fighter pilots sometimes thought it was a game rather than RL.

Itīs really quite a frightening revelation that.

Does anyone else see parallells to Orson Scott Cards "Enders Game" ?

	17-04-2002 14:12									#7
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But do you want your killers to think twice? Or do you want them to kill?

	17-04-2002 15:55									#8
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quote: But it also dehumanizes the combat. Reports from Desert Storm revealed that fighter pilots sometimes thought it was a game rather than RL.

I think war itself is dehumanizing. Unless done in Civ... But hey, itīs just a game! Itīs when people canīt see the difference between the game and reality when it gets frightening. I heard of some guys that had played CS or something similar on network, they got beaten by another guy they didnīt know, but they got so mad they went to his place and beat him up. Then you defenitly have played to much computergames!

	17-04-2002 16:04									#9
	Re: Call in the US Army Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I would love to see some of there contributions to the forums.

I'm sure you already do see their inputs.

	17-04-2002 16:16									#10
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Didn't you know? Sid was paid to make civ for the US Army.

Oh oh, was that classified?

	17-04-2002 17:14									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Flanker I heard of some guys that had played CS or something similar on network, they got beaten by another guy they didnīt know, but they got so mad they went to his place and beat him up. Then you defenitly have played to much computergames!

If this is true, then there was something wrong with these guys long before computer games got anywhere near them.

I have played computer games since 1984 (the year, not the book) and I don't think that shooting people has become any easier for me (thank God).
I doubt playing computer games teaches people anything about war. If it did, it would have people reaching for the reload short-cut in battle.

Robert

	17-04-2002 17:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither But do you want your killers to think twice? Or do you want them to kill?

I want them to NOT kill of course. Maybe I was a little unclear. Flanker said it like I intended.

	17-04-2002 19:31									#13
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Part of the reason for the harshness in boot camp is to dehumanize your recruits (to some extent). Without that dehumanization a soldier is more likely to hesitate in situations where they shouldnt. Soldiers are not police (though they are often used that way). In simple terms a soldiers job is to kill the enemy. Personally I wouldnt care if the pilots and soldiers saw their targets as bouncing bunny rabbits so long as they killed them (and therefore stayed alive themslves).

	17-04-2002 21:29									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

IMHO the Serious Sam Demo sucked (And thus I did not try the full version.), but maybe it was just me... But I like playing UT Demo with Instagib (One-shot kill. And as for why I didn't get the full version of that, what would I need it for? The extra weapons? Rofl... The other maps? Nah.).

And Duke3d still kicks ass.

	17-04-2002 21:55									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X But it also dehumanizes the combat. Reports from Desert Storm revealed that fighter pilots sometimes thought it was a game rather than RL. Itīs really quite a frightening revelation that. Does anyone else see parallells to Orson Scott Cards "Enders Game" ?

Some parralels yes. But Ender and company were kids that were being trained/brain washed whilst Army use young adults of legal age/citizenry. The big point 'bout Enders Game was the corruption of youth not so much the fact that war game trained folks to be efficient killers.

Now if you wanna argue war games played in military schools .....

	17-04-2002 22:04									#16
	The Pyschology of Killing Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

A quick intro to the pyschology of Killing:

http://web.qx.net/warcat/MilSF/Killing.htm

A lengthier resource:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...7109850-8512663

Not all computer games encourage violence. But some do.

The problem isn't that video games mimic reality too much, but that modern warfare mimics video games too much. You aren't killing people, you are pressing a button to send a missile or shell to blow up a blip on your screen. War is dehumanizing by nature. Playing video games helps soldiers treat war like a game, and they will "play" that game as they have been trained by habit to. They will not stop to consider the ramifications of pressing that button or pulling that trigger. That is the "problem".

Of course, some people don't see that as a problem. The military certainly does not.

I would doubt Civ does the same as FPS's on a personal level, but it would not surprise me if grognards and hardcore civ strat players (including Civ, MOO, Starcraft, AoK, etc...) were more supportive of large scale warfare. When news reports come about distant conflicts, we don't see the actual personal devastation - just that target X was destroyed, target Y captured, Army group A has taken City B, Army C has been destroyed by missile attacks, etc... very much like a wargame.

With a FPS, real blood becomes video game pixels. War, it's just a game. With a strat game, real blood isn't even acknowledged or modeled.

I'll keep my opinion on 9/11, afghanistan, and the current mid-east crisis out of it, but it would be interesting to see how a person's opinion of how the US and Israel should act - compares to that person's experience in Civ style games and their play-style. Are Civ 3 megalomaniacs really avid supporters of real-life US or Israeli retaliation? Are Civ 3 peaceniks truly balanced in their opined solutions? Are Civ 3 warmongers more likely to support NATO, large militaries, intervention? Are Civ 3 builders more likely to support real-life education and health care concerns, willing to sacrifice their military? Who really knows?
Most studies deal with FPS's, not wargames.

The connection is hard to prove, but I can see it being there.

	17-04-2002 22:09									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Some parralels yes. But Ender and company were kids that were being trained/brain washed whilst Army use young adults of legal age/citizenry. The big point 'bout Enders Game was the corruption of youth not so much the fact that war game trained folks to be efficient killers.

Training people to be efficient killers is a lot like brainwashing if you ask me...

	17-04-2002 22:15									#18
	Re: The Pyschology of Killing Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Captain I'll keep my opinion on 9/11, afghanistan, and the current mid-east crisis out of it, but it would be interesting to see how a person's opinion of how the US and Israel should act - compares to that person's experience in Civ style games and their play-style. Are Civ 3 megalomaniacs really avid supporters of real-life US or Israeli retaliation? Are Civ 3 peaceniks truly balanced in their opined solutions? Are Civ 3 warmongers more likely to support NATO, large militaries, intervention? Are Civ 3 builders more likely to support real-life education and health care concerns, willing to sacrifice their military? Who really knows? Most studies deal with FPS's, not wargames. The connection is hard to prove, but I can see it being there.

My strategy for taking over the world:

Build loads and loads of wonders and city improvements to jack up your culture rating. Then sit back and slowly devour culturally weak nations while you stock up on defensive units to defend yourself from those who donīt like your culture imperialism. Much like the US without the world police behaviour...

	17-04-2002 23:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Training people to be efficient killers is a lot like brainwashing if you ask me...

No arguement. But the reason why Ender's Game was so successful in driving home that same point was that it was barinwashing of children. For whatever reason brainwashing adults is considered a less heinous crime in our society.

	17-04-2002 23:47									#20
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consdering the filth in adult brains in our society not washing them would be a heinous crime....especially Ming's...

	17-04-2002 23:58									#21
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Very good post, Captain. Iīve noticed some of that myself actually. Iīve played quite a lot of flight simulators, and now when i see news reports from wars and conflicts, what really interests me is what type of weapons that are used. When I think about it, I actually get a little frightened - shouldnīt I instead think of all the people that get killed and wounded and have their life destroyed in many other ways because of the war?

I think that to be affected by computer games to do anything really stupid like killing another man, something is wrong with your brain long before that action. But the question is, would you have done that if you hadnīt played all the games and got yourself a more "non-caring" attitude? I think that many of the first person-shooter games like Doom and Quake and whatever they are called are a bit scary with all details of blood and killed people. And when I see young kids playing those games shouting "wow, I blow that guy into pieces, look at all that blood! I get a feeling that somethingīs not really right...

	18-04-2002 00:16									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe No arguement. But the reason why Ender's Game was so successful in driving home that same point was that it was barinwashing of children. For whatever reason brainwashing adults is considered a less heinous crime in our society.

Could it be because the ruling elite know they would be toast if people started thinking for themselves?

@jimmytrick...

	18-04-2002 01:02									#23
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Awaiting the day when an army sits in a room controlling virtual soldiers.

	18-04-2002 01:52									#24
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Ever hear of a UAV?

	18-04-2002 02:20									#25
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What, you don't think children's brains are equally filthy? Freud might've come up with some wacky-crack ideas, but if you just toss out enough theories eventually you're going to get one or two right. The only difference is that the filth in adults' brains is in a later stage of decomposition.

	18-04-2002 07:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X But it also dehumanizes the combat. Reports from Desert Storm revealed that fighter pilots sometimes thought it was a game rather than RL. Itīs really quite a frightening revelation that. Does anyone else see parallells to Orson Scott Cards "Enders Game" ?

Needless to say, distance must be the cause of this... in WW1, cases of fraternization between German and French soldiers were frequent. I don't think any such thing would be possible when one side is 30,000 feet away in a stealth fighter... Anyway, US propaganda is excellent. During the Golf war, journalists were prevented from going to the front lines (imagine the horror, NATO soldiers mutilated by toxic gas, children dismantled by US missiles). Instead, they only air pictures of collapsed buildings (just like a flight sim) but when they bombed Serbia every atrocity commited by the Serbs was showed on TV, in order to justify the attacks against Milosevic.

	18-04-2002 07:11									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X But it also dehumanizes the combat. Reports from Desert Storm revealed that fighter pilots sometimes thought it was a game rather than RL. Itīs really quite a frightening revelation that. Does anyone else see parallells to Orson Scott Cards "Enders Game" ?

Sounds a lot like the plot of Metal Gear Solid 2....

Seriously, it does make sense to use computer games for military training. A military flight simulator, for all it's worth, is little more than an arcade game on speed. I don't believe mainstream computer games have evolved to a point where a soldier can learn tactical thinking -- after all, your simply fighting against an AI interface that is only as good as it's programmer. For example, take the ineffective use of artilery and helicopters by the AI in Civ3. But, IMO, can definitely fine tune a soldiers strategic thinking... Things like managing chokepoints, resources, base placement, etc.

BTW, the DoD has developed Command & Conquer type of simulations to teach battlefield strategy. There was a game on the market recently claiming to be a watered-down version of that program, but I've never played it and won't comment on it.

-- twistedx

	18-04-2002 07:27									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Could it be because the ruling elite know they would be toast if people started thinking for themselves?

Ahh, a devotee of Chomsky I see not only by your sig but by comments as well. Interesting some of his writings and his video was compelling as well. I don't buy all of it but some makes sense on an intellectual level.

For example, I simply take offense to his compete disdain for sports. Hockey afterall is a sublime human endeavor.

	18-04-2002 08:42									#29
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What, you guys have never heard of Marine Corps Doom?

	18-04-2002 13:08									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Ahh, a devotee of Chomsky I see not only by your sig but by comments as well. Interesting some of his writings and his video was compelling as well. I don't buy all of it but some makes sense on an intellectual level.

Devotee is a strong word... I read his books an think heīs right about almost everything. But I donīt worship the man as the new Karl Marx or something...

quote: For example, I simply take offense to his compete disdain for sports. Hockey afterall is a sublime human endeavor.

I donīt care much for sports, unless itīs The Olympics or World Cup or something...

Oncle Boris: