18-04-2002 00:57									#31
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever we never did officially decide if preworked sets were a cheat or not...what is the consensus on that anyways

I don't really care which way we go... I've used it before.
So if we are voting... count me as a "why not"...

And hmmmmm... I wonder why no other cheaters have posted yet. They must not have any balls... unlike Eyes

	18-04-2002 02:45									#32
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I cheated once, created non units, just to see how it works and what advantage it was, did it in a game that I knew would not be completed and that I was miles behind in . I have played in games where the winner was obvious fairly early on and someone has asked if they could try various suggested cheat so we all could see the results.

I see no point in cheating to win, defeats the point of playing.

	18-04-2002 03:17									#33
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Sounds like our early games with XIN, right after MP came out.

We all cheated, trying to figure out what we could do. Every 30 minutes or so, XIN would say, found another one. It was always hilarious. After a couple of months we started to discuss which ones we would allow and which ones were banned. That was the beginning of "RAH" rules.

Rich

	18-04-2002 05:26									#34
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quote: Originally posted by EyesOfNight Partial confession? I'm sorry, did I leave something out?

Not that I care anymore but....

You used that bribing protection on me. I bribed one of your units and you disbanded it after. Grrr. This was after the "last time you cheated" according to your "honest" confession above.

I'm sure there were other things too, but I don't really care. So feel free to write an angry response calling me a bastard or something, but whatever. No hard feelings, I don't care.

	18-04-2002 05:49									#35
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I don't really care, but you're stupid. No hard feelings, but I think you're a total idiot. Who invented the disband while bribing bug? ME. I first used that bug on carnide. There were no rules stating that the bug couldn't be used and in fact at that point nobody knew how to do it yet. And you know what? I even came up with the click on the city see if the map moves. I even came up with the hit the space bar to see what city it is after you have trade. I've come up with alot of things that were eventually outlawed. However after everyone decided it was cheating, I stopped using it. Had everyone decided it was cheating yet? No. Were there other people that were using it at that point as well as me? Yes. Want to know another nice little thing? Bugs aren't cheating. They're unethical, but they aren't cheating. If it's in the game, it's apart of the game. The only thing that keeps people from using a bug is when the overwhelming majority of people disapprove of it. So if there was no disapproval at that point how is your last post even relevant? So even though your post was filled with stupidity and reflected your over all inability to think things out, no hard feelings.

	18-04-2002 14:00									#36
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I've downloaded cheatomatic and tested it out on a zone newbie - I wanted to see how it worked and what was possible with it, Rah you inspired me to do that with your little question on icq. It was an interesting learning experience

	18-04-2002 16:08									#37
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quote: Originally posted by EyesOfNight Bugs aren't cheating. They're unethical, but they aren't cheating

I wouldnīt agree here. Iīve seen huge bugs which were as powerful as cheatomatic. reopening huts for example. or a bug which allowed you to keep your shields after building an improvement, a unit or a wonder. even before these cheats were outlawed people should have realized that they were cheating when using these bugs. thereīs no need to play any longer if everyone would use one of these bugs, thatīs why I would call them cheating.
minor bugs like ship chaining, disbanding bribed units etc werenīt cheating before there was a general agreement about them.

as for cheatomatic: I canīt understand people are still using it. they must be complete idiots since I canīt think of any cheat which is easier detectable.

	18-04-2002 16:16									#38
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dp

	18-04-2002 16:18									#39
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I'd like to know how cheatomatic, if used properly, is easily detectable Oedo. Sure any idiot can use it, but If you're smart (actually you don't have to be that intelligent to do it at all) and a decent player you can easily make it so you get a great start every game (empty huts=100gold, perhaps even unneeded units, say like an archer on the other end of the map from your opponent). Combine this with a decent knowledge of the game and you can give yourself an edge that will help you beat almost anyone and it's completely undetectable.

	18-04-2002 16:32									#40
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empty=100 gold is certainly a more intelligent way of using it. but in the long run, this one is also detectable. if someone uses this cheat against you only one time, it will remain secret. but you certainly noticed that some people cheat over and over again. an explicit evidence is not possible here. but when someone NEVER has an empty hut Iīd call it an statistically proved cheat.

quote: Lets take Kuja for example. He used to, and still does, use a hex editor to give himself gold. What he would do is when he got a hut that contained a tech or was empty he'd give himself 100 gold. So when you look at a saved game you'll see him get a hut with 100 gold which on first sight is completely valid. But then you'll also see him get tons of huts like this and even get 100 gold plus techs which is how he was caught...again...and again. Very difficult to find unless you look very closely at the saves and save every single turn.

need to say more?

	18-04-2002 16:37									#41
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I was the one who saved the game against Kuja and I also was the one who suggested he gave himself gold when he opened huts (after Eyes analyzed the saves).

	18-04-2002 16:42									#42
	Inflate your Upload Space

And anyway, it usually takes concrete evidence for someone to be properly exposed as a cheater, not statistical evidence. For example I gave about 6 different games (Me vs Bud aka KaSya aka Merlin) to woke, all of which Bud started in a 4 special square and with him hosting every one (and he won 4 out of 6). Woke refused to dispute any of the games because he could not be 100% sure Bud cheated in the saves. He also let him off scot-free. Obviously I was pretty pissed.

	18-04-2002 16:47									#43
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cheaters should be aware of one thing: thereīre a couple of players who enjoy catching a cheater almost as much as playing. (me for example ) I always considerd this as a game in itself. a kind of challenge. sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.

	18-04-2002 16:52									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DrFell And anyway, it usually takes concrete evidence for someone to be properly exposed as a cheater, not statistical evidence. For example I gave about 6 different games (Me vs Bud aka KaSya aka Merlin) to woke, all of which Bud started in a 4 special square and with him hosting every one (and he won 4 out of 6). Woke refused to dispute any of the games because he could not be 100% sure Bud cheated in the saves. He also let him off scot-free. Obviously I was pretty pissed.

I remember this guy. you can guess he cheated. I donīt even have to take a look on the saves for knowing that.

edit: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=&threadid=8845

	18-04-2002 16:56									#45
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Yep but typically woke was being hard-headed and treating me like an inferior species.

	18-04-2002 17:33									#46
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DrFell
Since you've downloaded it, I'd still like to have you try it against me in a game so I can test my theory. Look for me online this weekend. I'd greatly appreciate it.

Rich

	18-04-2002 17:37									#47
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Ok. I'll probably be home for the weekend (at uni right now, no time or copy of civ2 to play).

	19-04-2002 17:38									#48
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I find all of this disturbing, this cheating stuff.

It's just a game, yet it's taken to extremes.
The only time I ever cracked the cheat mode is for scenario work, I couldn't begin to guess on how to do it in a live game, but I have been fairly good at detecting things that don't seem right (I was right about the MP game I told you about, Ming, the guy was cheating, every hut was sci and tech).

I found another sign of a cheater is the "dropper", the guy who's conection drops every single turn without fail.
The last time I saw this was in a 6 person game, the "dropper" had twice as many cities as anyone else, and 24 techs to everyone else having 12!

Seen some of the other stuff, but I'm no expert at catching anyone, I'm pretty sure I could be fooled rather easily.

	19-04-2002 17:59									#49
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I don't think you can affect hut results using cheat programs.

	19-04-2002 18:44									#50
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Anything that is not part of the spirit of the game as intended, be they cheat programs, bugs, or whatever is ethically bankrupt.

	19-04-2002 19:40									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I find all of this disturbing, this cheating stuff. It's just a game, ...

Hear hear!

Idle curiosity - as a University Lecturer I see that the students of today seem to feel that the only crime is getting caught - the concepts of morality or ethics seem to largely escape them - I know that Ming & Rah are of my generation, but is it fair to say that most of the cheaters belong to my daughter's generation or am I just getting to be an Old Fart who heaps all the problems of the world upon the young

SG[1]

	19-04-2002 19:49									#52
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Like the thief who isn't sorry for the theft, only sorry for being caught.

	19-04-2002 19:54									#53
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While I have no intention of labeling an entire generation as cheaters... I will admit there is some truth in what you say.

In talks with my daughter, it does seem like the general feeling is that cheating is ok as long as you don't get caught. She was telling me tons of stories of how the kids cheat in school (while denying that she does). Needless to say... WE HAD A LONG TALK

But after saying that... Our generation has some of that too

Oh... and Dr Fell...while I have no clue if there is a program that allows you to effect the outcome of a hut... you can use huts to cover the use of some programs. As people have reported... let's say you get an empty village... you then cheat and add 100 gold.
Impossible to prove somebody did it... Let's say you get a barb horseman, and since you have a movement left, you kill it... add 100 gold or a tech... again impossible to check unless you suspect something, and save MULTIPLE times during a persons turn (what a pain in the neck), and even then, you would have to be really lucky to actually catch it when it happens.

	19-04-2002 20:11									#54
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I completely agree we should be against bugs, but they aren't technically cheating. It's in the game, it's apart of the game, it requires no extra programs. The hut reopening bug is a bug that relies on lag and only the non host can do it...that's more of a cheat because it's not really the program causing the bug, it's the lag. Whereas the disband diplomat thing...that's not lag at all. The reason the disband diplomat works is because as long as the window for the option to disband is still open you can still chooose to disband your unit even after it is gone. The window closes like every minute and a half or something so you basically have a minute and a half time frame. So in conclusion, bugs aren't technically cheating, but the public opinion says it is...therefore it is. And I agree with that opinion.

By the way, I see Bud/kasya and kuja have yet to post on here...wonder why?

	19-04-2002 20:16									#55
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Whats funny is cheaters posing as winners.

Cheaters arent winners, theyre the exact opposite.

Like those dopers in the olympics posing as champions. They arent ****, and people that cheat on civ arent **** either.

The character and integrity of someone that has to cheat to win is shady at best. I know I couldnt look at myself in the mirror if I knew I had to bend rules for me to accomplish things.

	19-04-2002 20:26									#56
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As far as the generation thing goes, I think you'll always hear the "establishment" wringing their hands and moaning about the young.
And as always those moaning will be noticing the people who draw attention, minority or not.
Goes back to the values that are taught, and learned.
I'm fortunate. One "child", few serious worries.
Her mother did a good job.

	19-04-2002 23:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by EyesOfNight 3) The last person I cheated was Carnide back in the summer of 99. I gave myself gold to buy the pyramids. I still don't agree that riot factor is a cheat. Perhaps ethically wrong, but not technically cheating.

Hmm, why don't you explain how to get 25 gold at the 1st turn, without a hut close to you?
Sb. else may think it's due to a hut before he making the save. But loading the save with the map editor and I cna see each single hut's position. !lol!

	19-04-2002 23:55									#58
	Re: Why do you Cheat Tired of ads?

I think I did cheat in civ2. Not a great cheater tho. One of the thing I did most was using cheat option to reveal the map. Also I liked to change to other CIV when I felt bored.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ming
Inspired by the discussion going on in another thread...

For all you cheaters out there:

1) Please explain why you do it[\QUOTE]
Explore all secret part of my favoratest game. Spend more time with it, feel excitement of discoverring, and play better.

[QUOTE]
2) Explain all the different cheats you use
[\QUOTE]
As I said map revealing was most used. Then load/save a lot to get better result. Test play to see which city give me best revenue to my caravan. Of course, that's before markusf reveal the secret of trading.
But I never used them in any ladder game.

[QUOTE]
3) List examples of the people that you most recently cheated and what you did
[\QUOTE]
Hmm, I hope drake or deity won't see this. I did that with their last HOTWII dipo game. I suppose to sub for Chris(Mali). As a newbie in dipo world, I was eager to prove myself. Therefore after I get the sav file, I had a close look of the map, test played it a bit, found out that an ancient 2/1/3(1) warship can sail accross the ocean. But I don't have the tech yet. The current research : writing are going to finish soon. So I get a plan about what to do. In the game, I begin to begging for writing. my neigher drake don't want to offer me. Deity of Australia ignored the newbie of Mali. Only the maganificent Capo of Europa happily trade with me.

The result? please check the thread of HOTWII. Mali settled at New York one step earlier than EU.



[ QUOTE]
4) Give an example on how cheating made you number one in any of the ladders
[ \QUOTE]
Never.

Last edited by sekong on 20-04-2002 at 00:09

	19-04-2002 23:59									#59
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quote: Originally posted by markusf The slower the player the more likely they are to cheat.

Hmm, not always true. espacially in a x2 x2 game. For players like me, I like to use my unit to explore huts arround. When you meet a river, it makes longer turn.

	20-04-2002 02:18									#60
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"Hmm, I hope drake or deity won't see this. I did that with their last HOTWII dipo game. I suppose to sub for Chris(Mali)."




How very diplomatic.