17-04-2002 19:38									#1
	Why do you Cheat Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Inspired by the discussion going on in another thread...

For all you cheaters out there:

1) Please explain why you do it
2) Explain all the different cheats you use
3) List examples of the people that you most recently cheated and what you did
4) Give an example on how cheating made you number one in any of the ladders
5) Explain how cheating makes you more popular with the girls and adds to your felling of self worth.

Feel free to add your own questions to the list.

I'm sure this thread will get lots of posts
But you know what they say... confession makes the soul feel fresh and alive again...

	17-04-2002 19:46									#2
	Re: Why do you Cheat Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ming I'm sure this thread will get lots of posts

Yep, I bet we'll see all the cheating posting.

	17-04-2002 20:25									#3
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1) I did it because I wanted to see how it works. I wanted to see if I could do it and get away with it and see how well it works. Yes what I did was wrong, but most of what everyone knows today is from what I learned. Plus I have given back to the community not just knowledge of how people cheat and how to catch it, but I've written lots of strategies on how to play the game better so in a way I've paid my debt.

2) There's lots of ways to cheat. Easiest and hardest to detect is hex editing. Lets take Kuja for example. He used to, and still does, use a hex editor to give himself gold. What he would do is when he got a hut that contained a tech or was empty he'd give himself 100 gold. So when you look at a saved game you'll see him get a hut with 100 gold which on first sight is completely valid. But then you'll also see him get tons of huts like this and even get 100 gold plus techs which is how he was caught...again...and again. Very difficult to find unless you look very closely at the saves and save every single turn.

3) The last person I cheated was Carnide back in the summer of 99. I gave myself gold to buy the pyramids. I still don't agree that riot factor is a cheat. Perhaps ethically wrong, but not technically cheating.

4) When I cheated carnide the league points had been reset, alot of the players had left, including kaak, and I was kind of in a lull of boredom with the game. So being an immature 16 year old I decided to start "experimenting" with some things. So to answer the question...I never needed to cheat to get to number 1 and I have the strategies and knowledge to prove it.

5) After my incident I couldn't shake the girls off with a stick. They were all over me, just couldn't get enough of me. I guess that's what happens when you become famous. I can't go anywhere now without signing an autograph or getting my photograph taken.

So...who wants to be next? I know who you are, you know who you are, everyone else knows who you are, why not give it a shot?

	17-04-2002 20:34									#4
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quote: Originally posted by EyesOfNight 5) After my incident I couldn't shake the girls off with a stick. They were all over me, just couldn't get enough of me. I guess that's what happens when you become famous. I can't go anywhere now without signing an autograph or getting my photograph taken.

But seriously... thanks for your answers... so as you say...

Who's Next

	17-04-2002 20:52									#5
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Oh bullshit Eyes. Partial confessions are still lying.

Some people don't disclose starting with techs.
I probably wouldn't care if they would just say so.
Starting with premade maps that one calls random, cheating.
Again, just say so.
I don't understand how a Cheater feels any sense of accomplishment.

	17-04-2002 21:00									#6
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I'm going to assume you're referring to me.

"Oh bullshit Eyes. Partial confessions are still lying.

Some people don't disclose starting with techs.
I probably wouldn't care if they would just say so.
Starting with premade maps that one calls random, cheating.
Again, just say so.
I don't understand how a Cheater feels any sense of accomplishment."

Partial confession? I'm sorry, did I leave something out?

Obviously premade maps that are called random are cheating...are you saying I do that? Are you referring to the tribe game with kuja and Markusf? Again, clear precise thoughts would really help...but looking back you've never been very good at that.

	17-04-2002 21:02									#7
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And one more thing, are you trying to list things that I left out? Obviously I didn't list all the ways of cheating, nor do I feel like writing a book.

	17-04-2002 21:17									#8
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I applaud Eye's honesty. I did expect it since he has been pretty forthright in the past. I won't nitpik.

Slow, were you specifically mentioning eyes on that 'starting techs' accusation, or was that just a general one?

Since I host most of our games, Starting techs and premade maps is never an issue. (for me anyway )

I must admit, once I was tempted to say I had a tech since my start looked pathetic and a restart would have looked good, but I couldn't do it.

A long while back, I did sometimes load a game between sessions to peek because I assumed everyone was doing it. But once we discussed it, I stopped. Now I only peek at games that I know will never be continued. (which is unfortunately most of them)


RAH
THe beauty of Deity/Raging, no empty huts.

	17-04-2002 21:31									#9
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Yes... four thumbs up for Eyes...

Now, I dare ANY other person that used to cheat and was caught to be as honest as Eyes! (oh... and those that still do too)

Come on... BRING IT

	17-04-2002 22:17									#10
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Since I started a new "paragraph", I was switching subjects; as Eyes knew I was, and noted in his reply.I never meant to insinuate he was the only Cheater.
Yeah, an "honest cheater" is to be applauded, (Same paragraph, same thought process, same subject noun).

	17-04-2002 22:34									#11
	my guilt consumes me... Tired of ads?

1) i was desperate, severely outnumbered and being attacked from all sides, suffering crushing defeat after crushing defeat
2) i created extra units for myself
3) i cheated the Axis, Russians, Allies, French, Neutrals, and Spanish in spring and fall of '43. i created veteran armor near London, New York, Paris, Marseille, Madrid, French Northern Africa, Egypt, Moscow, Berlin, Vienna, and used those units to attack.
4) it didn't, it was just a scenario... not that that's an excuse
5) i'm not sure what "felling" means, at the time i felt fully justified but later i came to deeply regret my actions by cheating while leader of the Turks in the WW2 scenario at deity level, and robbing the AI of it's rightful victory and gaining a cheap 700% victory




i've also peeked at maps, but only after it was obvious that i lost/would lose and that there wouldn't be a continuation of the beatdown

	17-04-2002 22:46									#12
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Ming/Rah...roughly what percentage of people you have played would you suspect of cheating?

-----------------------------

SG(2)

	17-04-2002 22:52									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Ming/Rah...roughly what percentage of people you have played would you suspect of cheating? ----------------------------- SG(2)

Very Very Very small percentage. Remember, we play for fun... no ladder... no league... just a bunch of people getting together to enjoy a night of civ. There really isn't any incentive to cheat.
I win some... Lose a bunch... what difference does it make as long as I can play. I've seen a couple over the years, and after reviewing the save files, just stopped playing with the offenders.
No threads on Apolyton... No public outcry... just stop letting them in the game with many excuses Again... we do it for fun.

Oh... and CW... I still haven't peaked at that duel game yet

	17-04-2002 23:07									#14
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The unfortunate thing about playing a cheater is that many of us don't know how to look for cheats and/or can't be bothered too....certainly this is the case for me....

having played all the greats , losing and winning in the process, i feel as though most of them played honorably....

i am sure a few cheated when they won....and i would even imagine that a few cheated and lost.....but if i believed that everyone i was playing from the Zone, Gameleague, or Apolyton was cheating , i doubt i would spend a friday night gaming anymore.

key is too find people YOU think are trustworthy.....either by word of mouth or by painstaking review......

I finally figured out how the won/loss ratio works too......

its not a loss if you concede b/c your starting position is 10 squares away from each other

its not a loss if your cap is taken out by barbs from a hut if your playing king level with the barb setting low

its not a loss if your opponent gets a tribe/nomad and you get horseback riding

its not a loss if you get bad hut luck in general

its not a loss if you start in the mountains and your opponent gets rivers

its not a loss if you concede before the change of the first millenium

i may have missed some

	17-04-2002 23:10									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's good to hear most are honest.

Assuming you're not up to speed with hex editing/hacking what are the best indicators that you are playing a cheat?

------------------

SG(2)

Last edited by Scouse Gits on 17-04-2002 at 23:19

	17-04-2002 23:19									#16
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First... make sure that a trustworthy person is hosting... somebody you know who wouldn't know how to edit the files prior to the game if it smacked him in the face. That way, you know you are playing by the standard rules (HI RAH)...

And then save every stinking turn. Make notations during the game if strange stuff happens so you can look close at those years.

A cheater will usually start early to get off to a good start. Check the early files first (they are also easier and quicker to look through)...

We think we have a great way to determine the use of cheat o matic... but we haven't had the opportunity to test it yet, since none of the normal people in our group have it. But, we think the method is sound.

	17-04-2002 23:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ming First... make sure that a trustworthy person is hosting... somebody you know who wouldn't know how to edit the files prior to the game if it smacked him in the face.

Thanks ... do you care to expand on editing files before a game?

Can only the host cheat?

------------------

SG(2)

	17-04-2002 23:34									#18
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HA HA HA HA...

Nahhhh... anybody can cheat. But the host is important. Those are the game rules you are all using. People have been known to edit the parameters of the game... It could be by altering the happiness levels... x number of cities before city goes into disorder vs the original settings... attack or defensive strength of a unit... many things. Granted, everybody plays by the same rules, but if you are the only one that knows the difference...

And since I know Rah has no clue of how to edit this stuff, I can trust him to host (oh, and I have no clue either, so I also make a good host)

As far as knowing if somebody is cheating... It's all feel. After playing tons of game, you just know when something isn't right.
And that's when you start looking closely. But it mostly has to do with reputation.. If one of the "regulars" in our group started cheating, they would probably get away with it. It would take some strange situations before I would start checking game files on Rah... War4ever... Bezerker... Barano... Cold Wizard... and many others of the long timers

	17-04-2002 23:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ming If one of the "regulars" in our group started cheating, they would probably get away with it. It would take some strange situations before I would start checking game files on Rah... War4ever... Bezerker... Barano... Cold Wizard... and many others of the long timers

Sure ... I get the picture. Same with any game - play with those you trust. Now I might smell a rat if I'd just started on the Gardens and got the message that you had started on Manhattan

Can you learn/prove that much from an analysis of game files?

----------------

SG(2)

	18-04-2002 00:00									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, that's How I caught someone using the NON-unit creation cheat. One turn every city had two attached muskets in them. Then checking the next ten turns, each turn one city would switch to one none musket and one attached musket. The next turn another city would look like that. Until 10 cities each had a non-unit it in. He had no non-units at the beginning of the sequence.
And there were no good nonunit harvest areas, and I never saw them on the roads.

Eyes is very good at checking saves. I've gotten a few good hints from him.

RAH

Sometimes after a game is completed I'll peek to see if anything looks particuarly strange.

	18-04-2002 00:08									#21
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quote: Originally posted by rah Yes, that's How I caught someone using the NON-unit creation cheat.

The plot thickens...how do you create a NON unit? (Thinks ... do I really want to know this?)
-----------------
SG(2)

	18-04-2002 00:12									#22
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The slower the player the more likely they are to cheat.

	18-04-2002 00:15									#23
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Click on a unit in a city that is not attached to the city it is in.

Wait until you see that it is just switching to your turn... hit rehome unit. The unit will become a Non instead of attaching to that city. It takes a little practice, but it's pretty easy. It's great for doing that to ships before you go into republic or democracy...

However, our group has outlawed that one...

	18-04-2002 00:22									#24
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quote: Originally posted by markusf The slower the player the more likely they are to cheat.

There is some truth in that one...

Just like when it takes somebody 5 minutes to make their FIRST TURN... can you say peaking at the map using a second computer

	18-04-2002 00:25									#25
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Devious … could you list the most common cheats along the same lines as the NON unit one?

---------------

SG(2)

	18-04-2002 00:35									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Devious … could you list the most common cheats along the same lines as the NON unit one? --------------- SG(2)

You might want to check the discussion we were having in the rah rules thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=45463

But some of the common ones are teleporting caravans in one turn, and unlimited movement for units... Also, saving production from sabatoge... but that one really can't be used without being caught... picture it... you sabatoge the wonder, and he builds it on the next turn anyway. It either cost them a BUNCH of money, or they cheated

	18-04-2002 00:41									#27
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Thanks...very interesting tutorial
-------------
SG(2)

	18-04-2002 00:42									#28
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But, if you use the saving production for something besides a wonder, it would be hard to notice. I did it once on barracks by accident. (I was buying it when the dip showed up and saw the sabotage message at the same time) I did announce to the rest of the players that I had done it. For some reason, some people were outright laughing when I said it was an accident. Go Figure. I preceeded to sell the building and they let me keep the procedes since it was just a drop in the bucket of my adaquate treasury.

Carefull analysis of saves would spot this, but it's tedious as hell and you'd better know about when it happened. I'll jot down notes during a game if I'm suspicious.

RAH

	18-04-2002 00:42									#29
	Got spare money?

we never did officially decide if preworked sets were a cheat or not...what is the consensus on that anyways

	18-04-2002 00:50									#30
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Add my thanks to that ...
We are slowly getting up the courage to venture into the frightening world of MP ...

SG[1]