03-04-2001 04:08									#1
	The PERFECT Civ3 Game Intro Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would like to humbly submit to Firaxis that the 3DStudio-esque intros are only good for about 2 or 3 views. After which, we all skip them. What a shame and waste of valuable time.

[EDIT]: The current idea (far more refined, thanks to talking with Adm.Naismith and others) is basically to have an intro that "unlocks" according to various accomplishments you achieve over several weeks of gameplay. You can pretty much ignore the idea I give below here about pictures as this unlocking intro idea seems really cool. Look from the April 03, 2001 06:55 post by Adm.Naismith to see where this picked up.

I would like to submit something more like the following, which is easier to do, will create a better atmosphere for the game, AND be viewed many, many times:

** High-quality pictures of famous historical "stuff" dissolving and appearing over each other in the background. Everything ranging from a picture (in this case drawn, if needed) of a trieme through oil paintings of famous leaders to seats of government today...and wars, destruction, along with building (making bridges, etc.). Players should be able to add their own photos as well.

** Overlayed all of this will be amazing quotes about history and the future (to which players should be able to add their own).

** The kicker is the pictures and the quotes will always be randomized...so if you have about 50-100 pictures with that many quotes all coming up at random, you'd really get people to sit down and pay attention for quite a while.

** Hell, make it a screen saver option, too. I'd probably leave it on.

** Of course, some suitably cool music is required. I'm even thinking something classical here like Symphony No. 9 in E Minor, Op. 95 ('from the New World') Antonin Dvorak. Listen to it **here**. More than just Dvorak's beautiful melody (starts slow then really kicks in), his inspiration for writing it fits perfectly: He imagined these melodies when he pictured the New World.

Now, I realize some challenges to this:

1. Copyright
2. SMAC already did something similar (but, I think you'll agree, NOT like this)

Well, there's my idea. I'd choose this over another tired 3DStudio production any day...
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited April 03, 2001).]

	03-04-2001 04:26									#2
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Also, PLEASE listen to the song for at least 3 minutes...and as you do, imagine an explorer setting sail from Europe, encountering storms at sea that nearly take his life, then seeing a New World.

The music seems to cut out sometimes, but keep trying.

	03-04-2001 05:29									#3
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i wouldnt mind a video which i would skip. Your right when you say that no one watches it after the first time, but the pleasure of the intro is only in the first few times. If its well done, i wouldnt mind seeing it over and over. I played SMG and i always watched the videos. They were well done. If there is anything like "FIRAIS" which flashes on the screen, i certainly wouldnt want to watch it more than once. Anyhow, i think thata video would be fine. And maybe one depending on which civ you chose and one for which difficulty you chose

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Its okay to smile; you're in America now

	03-04-2001 06:29									#4
	Got spare money?

Yin, this is all opinion here, so don't get mad, but that is a terrible idea. Some of those 3d-esque intro/cut scenes are really good, especially if they have good music. i wouldn't watch ANY intro every time, but i'd watch something like that more than once, i'd watch what you suggested, MAYBE once. if i wanted to look at pictures, i'd look at a book. i turn on a computer, to look at stuff only a computer can do.

that being said, it's the GAME that's important. granted, the intro sets the mood, but focus on the game please.

	03-04-2001 06:49									#5
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Why would I get mad? We are just exchanging ideas...

Well, I NEVER watch those 3D movies more than once or twice. Why would I? And no doubt a great deal of artistic resources go into them.

Now, if all they did was just some simplistic version of what I'm talking about, then I agree it would not be all that impressive. But it could be done in a highly stylized way, I assure you. And I never thought that some akward 3D rendition of human affairs could ever do justice to what Civ represents. Sure, it was fine for CtP, since the cartoonish-look fit the cartoonish game, but not for Civ3.

I just had another image of a hand slowly painting in "The Tapestry of History" -- kind of like in Ultima 9 hanging in the museum. It showed all the Avatar's exploits in beautiful detail. Now, THAT could work well. You imagine a painting from left to right being slowly filled in from the discovery of fire to the detonation of nuclear weapons.

It would be computer art AND fit the more abstract level worthy of the game. How about that?

	03-04-2001 07:34									#6
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Wow Yin! I really like that Dvorak piece you posted! So much so that I saved it to my hard drive.
[This message has been edited by Wittlich (edited April 02, 2001).]

	03-04-2001 07:55									#7
	Tired of ads?

Hey, glad you liked it! I realize it's a huge file, but well worth it. Might be a bit slow to start the game, but when things heat up, it's a nice run of emotions up and down.

	03-04-2001 10:07									#8
	Suffering from ads?

CONNORKIMBRO QUOTE: "Some of those 3d-esque intro/cut scenes are really good, especially if they have good music."

I was never really big on the opening movie clips or music until I got 1602AD. WOW! I wish I can play the CD in my car. Firaxis, try giving it a listen some time.

	03-04-2001 15:55									#9
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I think any game intro must be appealing for a new player (watching it rolling on the shelf monitor at a game shop) and for reviewers ready to rate it 5 stars

As mentioned into another thread, we want to see Civ III Epic to be proud of this game.

The only way to appreciate an intro more than few times is to making it:
1) always fresh (difficult with limited CD Rom space available, and because of expensive graphic works to add)
2) game related as more as possible

Yin26 use of paintings and quoting (case 1) is good, but already used a lot IMHO.
I would change at least the progression, from modern time back to ancient age: Start in spaceship looking back to Earth, zooming to a Megalopolis, entering a museum, looking a painting, back to the artist drawing on a recent battlefield, back to the war ballade warrior song round the fire in village, back to the early hunter that used burned wood to paint hunt to the rocks, back to first village building right where you start with your initial settler...
and from here the proper game will start, as usual!

Case 2 (game related) is more complex, but can be used to add some early settings to the game: start with a nomadic tribe (not able to settle down into a proper city, wandering around a bit meeting early tribes, will let you start early diplomatic actions (join tribe) or early battles (crush people and enslave them, pillage their gold), explore early or hunt a food reserve. So you have some early turns (random range 10-20 before game start) with limited rules, just to chose the way you will lead your borning Civ.
You'll achieve very early tech (pre assigned in Civ2), achieve early reputation (bloody or pacifist), gain first momentum in resources, money or food. Then usual game will start
You are forging your Civ, so you must face decisions mutually exclusive.
You can skip this only to have a random quick start, but you probably want to keep control, so you'll see the intro every time.
Well (I see your complain ), but will it be an intro anymore, if you interact with a (limited) game? No, but who cares!

Really, given the game intro rules limit we can add quoting, animations, musics action related, more easily than inside the full game.

Transition from a "full steam 3d intro) to the more "flat" game engine will be smoother and deeper, helping to hook players into the game.

My silly proposal, as usual.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	03-04-2001 16:37									#10
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Adm.Naismith:

I really like your idea of an intro that reflects gameplay! However, I'd work it juuust a bit differently. I'd have it unlock elements depending on your score, achievements, etc.

For example, the first intro would be (to keep with the painting idea), just the discovery of fire (or start from space). Each time you exit the game, your score/avhievements will dictate how much more and what of the painting you see NEXT time.

For each wonder you build, part of a stunning wonder gets painted. Want to see the whole wonder painted? Good. Build all the wonders (across several games of course).

Want to see varios discoveries painted in? Be the first to discover them (again, across several games...iron this time, tactics next time...)

This way, your intro screen is actually a kind of evolving Easter egg!
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited April 03, 2001).]

	03-04-2001 16:43									#11
	Got spare money?

And now that I think about it, the music, too, should "unlock" so to speak. The more of the painting you complete, the more instruments and tracks open up. So the first time you just hear a rather timid flute, for example. By the time you manage to get it all (after several weeks/months of gameplay), you load Civ3 and get:

A stunning display of color and sound that YOU unlocked!
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited April 03, 2001).]

	03-04-2001 17:24									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Nice proposal, but in a few days you'll end with someone, here at Apolyton or in some game magazine cheat&triks page, spoiling the full end with a snapshoot!

I like more the suggestion about "score dependent" intro, but of course it will works for loaded games, while I'm speaking about New game intro.

If I think about loading game start, I'll stick with my "Great history book of Civilization" mid game replay, that I mentioned lot of times (please ask me if you want a link to refresh your memory



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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	04-04-2001 09:18									#13
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Anything epic and grand will do for me. If it's just going to be a movie, something like that fantastic SMAC intro, which in a dramatic fashion set the stage for the game, would not be wasted on me.

Having said that, a more interactive approach like Adm. Naismith and Yin are hinting at would be even more impressive if done right.

	03-04-2001 23:45									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Aw, yin. Now you've done it.

Now if Civ III comes out and it has a regular 3D intro movie like Age of Empires or Call to Power, I'll be disappointed.



Seriously, I like the concept. I'd never considered an intro movie that draws from customizable files, but it strikes me as a great idea. (I wouldn't consider it a Top Ten priority, but it's a great idea nonetheless.)

So does the idea of an intro movie that gradually "unlocks" as you play. The great thing about that is it adds replay value for people who might not otherwise play for more than a few weeks. The sort of players who are used to buying a game, playing it until they "win," and then putting it away. It gives them something to aim toward, that will take a month or so.

	04-04-2001 05:17									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hey, thanks guys. I've never heard of this being done. Could be really great.

Perhaps a nice compromise here would be to have a "traditional" intro and then on the load/save screen, have the painting THERE. It would still be just like I suggested, but this way you'd also have a more typical intro.

Still another variation is to have the intro such that it's 3d and all but ends with a guy walking into a room to do his painting...which is still in progress according to your previous exploits. That could be cool, too!

	04-04-2001 09:41									#16
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I got a better idea, why not have the intro show the sexiest women from each centry. from 4000 bc to now

	04-04-2001 13:01									#17
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As long as you have to "unlock" her clothing, I'm up for it.

	04-04-2001 17:29									#19
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Sure, regular 3D intro movies are for looooser companies, it can't be good enough for an Epic Game Builder as Firaxis, can it?

Dan Magaha, are you reading, printing and passing this to Sid?

BTW, don't you have more than enough of us, always asking more work for you poor Firaxis employee?

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	05-04-2001 03:44									#20
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This reminds me of Tekken 2, the much loved f**k 'em up on the Playstation, where the main screen changes once you achieve a certain feat. Other gameplay landmarks in Civ 3 could include:

Beating the game at the higher difficulty levels. (Increasingly grand main 'game lobby' pages become unlocked + intro movie extension).

Cracking super-hard CtP 2 style 'Feats of Wonder'. (Bonus in the intro movie).

I wonder if you could have 'negative' features crop up in your intro movie/game lobby screen... like chimney stacks belching smoke for serial polluters... blasted wastelands for those who are a bit too happy to resort to atomic devastation....

	05-04-2001 20:11									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I personally think that 3D intros, cut scenes and FVM elements are a waste of resources and irrelevant to strategy games. It appears that even Firaxis thinks so...

quote: ..the design team is avoiding the usage of cut-scenes and full-motion video as much as possible, which is a good thing. By the third time you've seen these clips - and in this type of game [Civ3] you see them a lot more than three times - you want to hit the Escape key. The designers know that cut scenes get old because they all played Civ.

	06-04-2001 02:01									#23
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Steve Clark, I respect your opinion, but if Firaxis is really using programmers and artists, able to add cut scenes and intro, to program game AI...
Well, we can't hope too much from game AI, can we?

Seriusly now, how do we always suppose that a game is made only from few relevant components? Priority is good, ignoring whole part of a game, IMHO isn't.

Never mind Clark, I'm pretty confident both we'll like the Firaxis effort

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	06-04-2001 09:59									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

ok, i posted this in the "eye candy" thread, but i feel SO compelled to post it here too, as this is where it should be posted. so, i apologize, bear with me.

Theres a big difference between the intro that plays everytime you load the program, and an intro that plays at the start of each new game.

The one that plays at the start of each new game should be the one you focus on. That's the one that I will watch every time. And i think alot of other players will as well.

Think back to civ1. . that one had that kind of intro. I watched it every time. Civ2 on the other hand, did not. I can hardly even remember the intro to civ2. A few other games too. (ie, black and white has a FANTASTIC intro of this sort)

Thats the kind of thing you want to do.

	06-04-2001 13:27									#25
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Mmmm, cut scenes.

Hey, why not some really cool cut scenes for wonders this time, even better than SMACs (if that is possible :eek . Also get some historical quotes, have one, at random, end the intro (of course).

	12-04-2001 08:45									#26
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"Visually, Firaxis felt it to be so important to have a singular vision for the game's look and feel that the design team enlisted a 17th-century painting by Peter Brueghel as their muse of sorts. Any time an artist on the team has a question about design or palette, they consult Brueghel's Tower of Babel. In Firaxis' minds, this will create a unified visual theme across the game. So significant is the painting, in fact, an adapted model of it can be seen in the opening movie."
- CGW Preview

Well, now its confirmed, an opening video will be included, sounds like it might be slightly animated, "an adapted model"?

"Interestingly, the design team is avoiding the usage of cut-scenes and full-motion video as much as possible, which is a good thing. By the third time you've seen these clips—and in this type of game you see them a lot more than three times—you want to hit the Escape key. The designers know that cut scenes get old because they all played Civilization. "

No cut-scenes, or at least as we know them, now what are they gonna do for Wonders?