18-04-2002 10:17									#31
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Maybe Russia still wants it.

	18-04-2002 10:27									#32
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CBC report back to saying F-16, asher. CNN too.

	18-04-2002 10:29									#33
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Typical CBC can't keep its facts straight.
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/17/cdndeaths020417 still says F-18 but the Government & CNN & MSNBC are all saying F-16.

	18-04-2002 10:29									#34
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That's sort of odd...

BTW, CBC was first to the story, asher.

	18-04-2002 10:33									#35
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I should hope they were, being a government-run company attending the government news conference announcing it.

	18-04-2002 10:52									#36
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Hey Krazy Horse. I just finished reading a book about a physicist. Gordon Gould inventor of the laser. He had a bitter patent fight...

	18-04-2002 10:55									#37
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Okay. Did that have anything to do with why it's called a LASER and not a LOSER like it was originally?

	18-04-2002 11:03									#38
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yeah...they talk about the name. Was a takeoff on Maser
.

	18-04-2002 11:17									#39
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This is a complete screw up. The Canadians are in a designated training area. The American pilot is not involved in the training. What the hell was he doing? Why the hell do the Americans send over their weekend warriors into a combat zone.

And all of this comes a few days after a bunch of Americans blew themselves up with rockets.

Are the Americans troops just incompetent or stupid.

Instead of spending money building bowling alleys, they should try to give their guys some basic training.

This just pisses me off to no end.

	18-04-2002 11:20									#40
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quote: Are the Americans troops just incompetent or stupid. Instead of spending money building bowling alleys, they should try to give their guys some basic training. This just pisses me off to no end

Easy, Tingkai. I was a little bit pissed when I heard it too, but **** happens when they give thousands of people guns and bombs to tool around with. The Americans put their tender asses in the way of the bombs as much as our guys do, and it could just as easily have been four dead Yanks tonight. The investigation will be Canadian-led, and if Washington knows which end's up it'll receive more than full cooperation.

	18-04-2002 11:26									#41
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse **** happens when they give thousands of people guns and bombs to tool around with.

That's the type of attitude that contributes to this **** happening.

I can understand this happening in the heat of battle, but the enemy is supposedly on the run and the Allies are just mopping up scattered resistance.

The Canadians were doing training in a designated training area and they get bombed. That's a major screw up and indicates the Americans have not got their basic communications in order.

More Allies troops have died from "friendly fire" than have been killed by the Afghanis.

If the Americans are willing to put in poorly trained troops and risk having them kill each other then that is their choice.

I say pull out the Canadians.

	18-04-2002 11:28									#42
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I would be all for taking the current Canadian troops in Afghanistan and airlifting them to Ottawa to fight there.

Somebody needs to cleanup parliament, and it sure as hell won't be a politician.

	18-04-2002 11:32									#43
	Tingkai Got spare money?

I'm going to pull a typical attitude here and say "wait for the investigation". I'll admit it doesn't look very good for that pilot, though. If they find out that he broke the rules he was supposed to be following and mistakenly dropped a bomb because he ****ed up, then I agree they should nail him to the wall. Remember that the Danes and Germans lost 5 due to a f*ck-up not too long ago.

This one does leave a more bitter taste, of course, given that it really doesn't look like the troops could possibly have been to blame for what happened...

	18-04-2002 11:37									#44
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This is symptomatic of a very serious problem. The vehicles the army uses are now incredibly technologically sophisticated, with some assault helicopters containing supercomputers now. But the men flying them are not necessarily trained or adept at using the technology.

	18-04-2002 14:29									#45
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In the Gulf the Americans killed more British troops than the Iraqis did.

	18-04-2002 17:03									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai This is a complete screw up. The Canadians are in a designated training area. The American pilot is not involved in the training. What the hell was he doing? Why the hell do the Americans send over their weekend warriors into a combat zone. And all of this comes a few days after a bunch of Americans blew themselves up with rockets. Are the Americans troops just incompetent or stupid. Instead of spending money building bowling alleys, they should try to give their guys some basic training. This just pisses me off to no end.

OK to be pissed off. I am too. But we shouldn't judge or point fingers before we have all the facts.
This may turn out to be human error on either side.
Who's to say that one of our guys didn't report the wrong coordinates for the training field?

They're saying that some of the wounded are in really bad shape.

	19-04-2002 16:54									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Evil_Eric_4 This the second time I heard of live fire exercises killing our own boys. Don't we train soldiers BEFORE we send them into combat zones?

Because like successful armies throughout history we rehearse our operations ahead of time, modify our tactics to the problem at hand and refresh our memory in regards to skills which we are not using regularly in operations but may need to have honed to razor sharpness at a moment's notice.

Btw it was the Canadians who were conducting a live-fire excercize, and the F-16 was flying a combat mission. The pilot thought the Canadians were firing on him, asked for permission to bomb and was denied permission. He wouldn't let it go and claimed he was in danger and dropped his bomb claiming self defense. I think he's in big trouble.

Tingkai,

Don't you wish it was a B-52? They fly above the flak and only respond to ground requests for airstrikes.


Again, my regrets and condolences to our Canadian friends.

	19-04-2002 17:29									#48
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It was obviously on purpose!!!1

Americans just love to kill inncent canadians!

We shall never forget kandahar!!!!

	19-04-2002 17:38									#49
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"The pilot thought the Canadians were firing on him, asked for permission to bomb and was denied permission. "

WTF?!

What's your source for this?!

The MoD spokesman was trying to be diplomatic about this so I didn't actually get a clear picture of what happened.

	19-04-2002 17:53									#50
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CNN reported that he was denied permission to drop his bomb, Seeker.


Deepest apologies to Canada.

	19-04-2002 18:54									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I can understand this happening in the heat of battle, but the enemy is supposedly on the run and the Allies are just mopping up scattered resistance.

Accidents happen in peacetime also. And the situation in Afghanistan is not yet peace.

quote: If the Americans are willing to put in poorly trained troops and risk having them kill each other then that is their choice. I say pull out the Canadians.

Did you support the deployment of CA troops, anyway? Is this just an excuse to pull out for you?"

	19-04-2002 18:56									#52
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The cause is still just and the threat is still real.
Besides, to pull out now would be an insult to the victims.

	19-04-2002 19:02									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Btw it was the Canadians who were conducting a live-fire excercize, and the F-16 was flying a combat mission. The pilot thought the Canadians were firing on him, asked for permission to bomb and was denied permission. He wouldn't let it go and claimed he was in danger and dropped his bomb claiming self defense. I think he's in big trouble.

Err, that's right.
BUT did the Canadians had any anti-aircraft weapons?

I mean, did he see a rocket coming for his ass or something?

Oh man, I remember the crisis of The Aegean, The Imia crisis, where in the last minute a proposition to napalm half the turkish coasts was averted...
In the heat of a crisis, sh!t happens. It is unavoidable.

	19-04-2002 19:06									#54
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Err, that's right. BUT did the Canadians had any anti-aircraft weapons?

That's the thing about the fiasco. They didn't have any weapons capable of hitting the plane and yet the fool still thought that he was in danger for some reason.

	19-04-2002 19:12									#55
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Was the pilot an avid ice hockey fan per any chance?






















(no offense to the canadians, just a little joke, if it offends I'll edit it)

	19-04-2002 19:13									#56
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Why is it called friendly fire? It's not very friendly.

	19-04-2002 19:26									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's the thing about the fiasco. They didn't have any weapons capable of hitting the plane and yet the fool still thought that he was in danger for some reason.

He's in the plane. He's over Afghanistan. It's in the middle of the night. He doesn't see ****! There's a lot of firing down there.

That's what i call a bad situation.

And the people who should be telling him " Hey buddy, those are the good guys" are not relaying the information.
I'm not expecting a pilot to know where the training sites are in Afghanistan. I am expecting someone to tell him where they are when he needs to know it though.

The one thing that i would question (not condemn) from the pilot is the actual decision to drop the bomb. He says he felt threatened. That's his call. I'm glad i did not have to make that call and i'm not prepared to condemn him now.

	19-04-2002 19:31									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu And the people who should be telling him " Hey buddy, those are the good guys" are not relaying the information.

They denied him permission to "set them up the bomb."

	19-04-2002 19:52									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc They denied him permission to "set them up the bomb."

And they told him that it was up to him if he felt he was threatened
These are the same people who are supposed to let him know that these are Canucks downthere.

	19-04-2002 20:05									#60
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Yeah instead of simply denying his request to bomb, a simple explaination of why should have done it.