19-04-2002 20:06									#61
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Royal screwup, it seems, by the pilot. Then again, having never put my ass on the line before, I'm not exactly prepared to crucify the guy just yet. The fact that he was National Guard may have something to do with it (less training), but I don't know.

Anyway, my condolences to the families of the Candians who were killed. Though I'm sure it doesn't make anyone feel better, bear in mind we do this to our own guys sometimes, too.

-Arrian

	19-04-2002 21:03									#62
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quote: Originally posted by GP Accidents happen in peacetime also. And the situation in Afghanistan is not yet peace. Did you support the deployment of CA troops, anyway? Is this just an excuse to pull out for you?"

No, it is not an excuse. I'm not 100 per cent in favour of how things went down in Afghanistan, but at the same time, the Americans did a good job on the initial battle. (My concern is that they'll end up in another Vietnam quagmire. I'm not saying this will happen, but this is a big concern).

As far as Canadian troops helping the Americans, it was a natural thing to do for our friends to the south, but when the incompetent Americans start killing our guys then things change.

Helping out a friend is one thing, but when the friend start killing your guys it is time to say enough.

I say pull out our troops until the Americans can prove that they have taken steps to prevent this from happening again.

	19-04-2002 21:08									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu He's in the plane. He's over Afghanistan. It's in the middle of the night. He doesn't see ****! There's a lot of firing down there. That's what i call a bad situation. And the people who should be telling him " Hey buddy, those are the good guys" are not relaying the information. I'm not expecting a pilot to know where the training sites are in Afghanistan. I am expecting someone to tell him where they are when he needs to know it though. The one thing that i would question (not condemn) from the pilot is the actual decision to drop the bomb. He says he felt threatened. That's his call. I'm glad i did not have to make that call and i'm not prepared to condemn him now.

This type of Canadian response pisses me off big time. An American kills four Canadians and injures eight other Canadians, and we get an idiotic Canadian making excuses for the Americans,

And buddy, you may not expect a pilot to know where the training sites are, but I do. When pilots is briefed for a mission they should be told where the training sites are located. If they were not told then the American flight commander screwed up big time.

Either way, the Americans ****ed up big time.

	19-04-2002 22:21									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai This type of Canadian response pisses me off big time. An American kills four Canadians and injures eight other Canadians, and we get an idiotic Canadian making excuses for the Americans, And buddy, you may not expect a pilot to know where the training sites are, but I do. When pilots is briefed for a mission they should be told where the training sites are located. If they were not told then the American flight commander screwed up big time. Either way, the Americans ****ed up big time.

Nice to meet you too.

If calling people with a different opinion than yours "idiot" makes you feel better : go ahead. You should have put a couple more "angry" smilies inthere too. I'm sure it would have helped.

As for being angry at "this type of Canadian response", are you trying to say that i have to **** on Americans? I'm a bad Canuck if i don't trash the US military ? Grow up...

As for your comments about me not expecting a pilot to know where the training sites are : If he did not know, i'm guessing he was not told.
The key here is : I'M GUESSING. As are you.
Because i don't know whether or not he was told. If you have access to that piece of information or if you were present at the pre-flight briefing, please let me know.

I do know that he called his base to say that there was firing below his position and again to ask for permission to drop his bombs. There were two opportunities to tell him that there were Canadians there. But no one did. Why ?
I don't know!

I too am angry. But i'll wait until i know who the ******* really is before i start calling him an *******.

	19-04-2002 22:37									#65
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I don't think being a "weekend warrior" is bad. Just because you're in the Reserves, doesn't mean you are poorly trained.

Indeed, many of the special forces who "won" the initial phase of the war (PsyOps, etc.) have real suburban, white picket fence lives beyond the military.

Also, these "weekend warriors" are patrolling the skies over the U.S. as we type...

	19-04-2002 23:52									#66
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DanS,

I didn't mean to put down the NG. I was just speculating on how/why it happened. For all I know, someone back at base may have screwed up and never told the pilot there was a Canadian live fire exercise going on.

Tingkai,

I understand that you're upset and all, but... ah, nevermind.

-Arrian

	19-04-2002 23:57									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian DanS, I didn't mean to put down the NG. I was just speculating on how/why it happened. For all I know, someone back at base may have screwed up and never told the pilot there was a Canadian live fire exercise going on.

It wasn't just Canadian live fire exercise, Americans were taking part in it too, so I'm surprised they didn't tell everyone anywhere near it about the training being done.

	20-04-2002 00:06									#68
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Apparently this guy's immediate 'handler' was a command plane or electronics plane in the area, pulling the strings.

These command planes supposedly have maps, know the location of friendlies at least, and relay that kind of info to pilots.

Maybe it was our fault? Maybe our guys forgot to check in with the Americans before going out?

Maybe this weekend warrior just saw some small arms flashes and figured it was time for some payback?

It was a decision under pressure, in a very limited time frame.

However, it is supposed to be the military and they are supposed to have high standards of discipline and responsibility.

I can understand the handler's perspective though. In a confusing situation, where you don't really know where or who the enemy is, you SHOULD be able to trust the man who is actually there, if he says he's being shot at, than why not believe him?

So the heart of it seems to rest on the individual guy.

Night mission, yadda yadda, muzzle flashes....wouldn't a real professional know the difference between being shot at and not? And shouldn't a combat pilot BE that kind of real professional?

	20-04-2002 01:40									#69
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And why the hell would an F-16 be afraid of small-arms fire? I think he was looking for any chance to get into the action.

	20-04-2002 02:48									#70
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KH,

It certainly looks bad for this guy and for his AWACS or E-2 controller.

Tingkai,

I don't beleive that you supported this mission and are changing based on an accident. I think you were never supportive of CA participation in the Afghan war. I feel a lot of sypmpathy for those men and their families. None to "left wing version of Giancarlo".

	20-04-2002 02:56									#71
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I might add that apparently this was a precision-guided munition. The pilot has to get the coordinates from somewhere, right?

	20-04-2002 05:59									#72
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Not according to my understanding. He marks the target with a laser on his plane (I'm assuming that some sort of onboard pattern-matcher maintains lock) then drops the bomb, which follows the laser dot.

	20-04-2002 06:01									#73
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quote: Originally posted by GP Tingkai, I don't beleive that you supported this mission and are changing based on an accident. I think you were never supportive of CA participation in the Afghan war. I feel a lot of sypmpathy for those men and their families. None to "left wing version of Giancarlo".

Tingkai isn't the left-wing version of Giannie, GP. He seems to me to be over-sensitive on this issue, but he's generally a very reasonable person. IIRC, he's also served in the RCAF (might be talking out of my ass, but I seem to remember this, plus he's got the RCAF's motto as his sig).

	20-04-2002 06:42									#74
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KH,

Well you know how I get when I have a few Tanqueray's under the belt...anhoo, I honestly thought he was an AH DL. Some people said he was...(interlude...do da dance!! DUH!! DUH!! do da dance!...interlude) and err...anhoo...he's not as smart as you. Rather have a smart commie than a dumb one to parry swords with.

If he was RCAF, love to hear his background. Find it hard to see him as a pilot. Just doesn't radiate that kinda knowledge.

Umm....I did the RCAF exercise book...

	20-04-2002 06:46									#75
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No prob, bob. If he's an AH DL then he displays an unhealthy degree of knowledge of Canadiana, most especially of hockey. IIRC he's a journo working in Hong Kong (?) currently.

But you never know. AH's a civil servant, so he has all the time in the world to research his roles...

	20-04-2002 06:47									#76
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not according to my understanding. He marks the target with a laser on his plane (I'm assuming that some sort of onboard pattern-matcher maintains lock) then drops the bomb, which follows the laser dot.

Pilot in f-15 (strike) can lase on own. Better to have on-ground lasing than in plane...but it is still available. F-16 rpbably similar.

(So you are right KH.)

	20-04-2002 06:51									#77
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No prob, bob.

Is this just rhyming or are you saying I am a BD DL?

	20-04-2002 06:52									#78
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Never heard that expression?

EDIT: You and Boobie being DLs would be interesting...

Unlikely, but interesting.

	20-04-2002 07:00									#79
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Would I be his or he mine? but it has been a while since History was here...

	20-04-2002 07:02									#80
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Interesting philosophical question, you no-good yanqui cowboy who kill his own allies.

	20-04-2002 07:51									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu If calling people with a different opinion than yours "idiot" makes you feel better : go ahead. You should have put a couple more "angry" smilies inthere too. I'm sure it would have helped. As for being angry at "this type of Canadian response", are you trying to say that i have to **** on Americans? I'm a bad Canuck if i don't trash the US military ? Grow up...

Yes it did make me feel better. It helped burn off some frustration.
Four of our guys are dead and eight injured because of something that should not happen.

However, that doesn't mean I should have taken my anger out on you.

My apologies to you.

	20-04-2002 07:58									#82
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quote: Originally posted by GP Tingkai, I don't beleive that you supported this mission and are changing based on an accident. I think you were never supportive of CA participation in the Afghan war.

You asked me a question and I answered it. I have never said anything against the Canadian support for the US in Afghanistan.

Now, without any justification, you're calling me a liar.

If the situation was reversed, would you want American troops to stay or would you call for a pull out until something was done to prevent a repeat tragedy?

	20-04-2002 08:14									#83
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quote: Originally posted by GP If he was RCAF, love to hear his background. Find it hard to see him as a pilot. Just doesn't radiate that kinda knowledge.

I was never a member of the RCAF, simply because the RCAF ceased to exist in 60s when Canada's air force was renamed Air Command following unification.

I have served in the Civilian Instructor Cadre as a commissioned officer (April 1, 1990). As the name implies, the CIC consists of training officers. We are part of a non-combat reserve arm of the Canadian Forces.

Although the CIC is quite different from the regular forces and the primary reserves, we still abide by the same rules and regulations as other members of the CF.

And I am licenced to fly gliders, although I haven't done it in years.

I'm not sure that this has anything to do with my response to this tragedy in Afghanistan. I would like to think that all Canadians feel sorrow about the death of our troops. The men who died volunteered to serve our country even though they know they won't be given the proper tools to do the job, even though they don't get paid very much and even though they know they will be put in situations where they are not allowed to defend themselves (e.g. peacekeeping missions).

At the very least, we owe it to them to say that we will do everything we can to prevent this from happening again.

	20-04-2002 09:43									#84
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This was not inspired by the South Park movie that was out a couple of years ago by any chance, was it??

	20-04-2002 10:44									#85
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Interesting philosophical question, you no-good yanqui cowboy who kill his own allies.

1. I'm glad you all are there, helping fight the good fight.
2. I am very sorry for the accidental death of your countrymen.

	20-04-2002 10:45									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You asked me a question and I answered it. I have never said anything against the Canadian support for the US in Afghanistan. Now, without any justification, you're calling me a liar.

I just smell something fishy...

quote: If the situation was reversed, would you want American troops to stay or would you call for a pull out until something was done to prevent a repeat tragedy?

We have already had freindly fire accidents and I do not support ending the war over them.

	20-04-2002 10:47									#87
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Jeez, it's not like they were lined up against a wall and executed, KH.
Bad things do happen.

	20-04-2002 10:49									#88
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Just a question: how many Americans were killed by the friendly fire of their allies in the Gulf?

EDIT: also, how many did the British lose to their own friendly fire there?

There seems to be a perception that the American military is more trigger-happy than other modern forces. Wondering if this is borne out by the stats, or is just vicious rumour.

	20-04-2002 10:55									#89
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IIRC, the Brits who died from "friendly fire" in the Gulf were killed by American helicopter pilots.

	20-04-2002 10:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Jeez, it's not like they were lined up against a wall and executed, KH. Bad things do happen.

When I start calling people no-good "yanqui" cowboys then I'm really just yanking their chain...