18-04-2002 12:59									#1
	Q about Longbowman Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hi, I'm making a mod of Civ2 and I'm planning to integrate the Longbowman unit. I was wondering: in CivIII, when does the Longbowman become obsolete and to which unit does it upgrade? Thanks in advance!

Oh, also: does it have a bombard ability like the Frigate? And do the Artillery units (catapult, cannon etc)? If not, what's the difference between a Longbowman and a Cannon?

	18-04-2002 13:17									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

1 - it never becomes obsolete, you can build it till you have modern armor.
2 - it ain't a bombarding unit, meaning it can kill even pre 1.21f.

It's just a cheap attacking unit for the poor resourceless AI. I never build any.

	18-04-2002 13:21									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have never used it, it sucks.

	18-04-2002 13:32									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Until Modern Armor? That's ridiculous! I'm happy I resisted the temptation of buying Civ3. I could have re-made Civ2 a lot better (in fact I am with this Civ2 mod).

Anyway, my Longbowmen unit becomes obsolete with a Tech called Age of Reason (somewhere in the Renaissance) and is kind of a cheap artillery unit (5.1.1.), whereas Catapult and Cannon are (7.1.1.) and (9.1.1.). It can make quite a dent in any Middle Ages / Renaissance unit.

	18-04-2002 15:20									#5
	Longbows have their uses Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Here's what you can use them for:

If you lack the necessary resources for the offensive units of that era (iron and horses if you want to build knights, or iron if you are just talking about swords), then longbows let you stay at least marginally competitive.

Homeland defense: If you've conquered half the world and your core cities are in no danger of attack, you can build a bunch of longbows and swordsmen to guard your inner cities on the cheap while your really expensive units are on the front lines and not have to worry so much about the AI sneak-attacking you because you have no units in your cities.

Happiness patrol/flip prevention: Keeping bodies in the cities for Military Police-enabled governments is what it's all about. A warrior generates the same one content face that Mechanized Infantry does, so if you need an extra unit to keep the citizens content, you can build longbows more cheaply than later units if all you're looking for is happiness. You can also pile them in newly captured cities that are resisting to prevent them from flipping and not lose as much momentum with your offensive since you'd have fewer "fighting" units left on guard duty.

	18-04-2002 15:58									#6
	Hardly any usefulness in later eras Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Longbowmen are much cheaper to build, but who cares in industrial/modern age? Your well developped cities will produce longbowmen each turn, but tanks in two or three turns.
What's the best deal you think?

Those outdated units can hardly inflict damage to the enemy's troops, and are relatively expensive in comparison to tanks and other modern units (production time is only one/two turns less):

you still have to pay the same (1gold/unit) maintenance costs ...

So, don't bother building them (and keep your eyes on the domestic nag that 'hard headedly' will try producing swordsmen in modern era ...

AJ

	18-04-2002 16:22									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Actually yes, your well developed cities will indeed produce riflemen etc in one turn. The reason they don't become obsolete is surely just in case you end up resourceless in the late game?

	18-04-2002 16:39									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Actually, DRFell, they are kind of useless after Nationalism because it gives you Riflemen. Since Riflemen are resourceless, they become the new low end unit of choice.

I did a mod where the low end foot units (archer, sword, and spear) upgrade paths converge on Rifleman. This worked very well unless you needed a cheap unit out in the boonies. It would take 80 turns (I think) to crank out the Rifleman as opposed to the 10 for a warrior.

	18-04-2002 16:51									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

True, generally speaking it's not worth it to produce longbows in your core cities when they can produce tanks etc. in a turn or two. That's why you assign those marginally corrupt or poorly-located cities that aren't quite worth building a factory for to produce the longbowmen, since it would take them 10 or 15 turns to produce a tank, but can make a longbow in a reasonable amount of time.

Now, that being said, I hardly ever build more than one longbow (I almost always build one as soon as I get Invention just so the AI can "fear" it), as they aren't really all that useful unless you're resource-poor, plus they never upgrade into anything. The times when I've done it tend to be my world conquest scenarios where I'm straining to produce as many units as I possibly can so I don't have to stop my offensives (drafting used to be a superior soltuion to this problem before 1.17 buggered up the unhappiness penalties, it might be superior again with 1.21f so the longbow strategy outlined above will probably need some reworking starting tomorrow).

	18-04-2002 17:01									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I agree with using obsolete units such as the longbowmen for garrison duties when you just need a temporary occupation force fast.

If you end up with no critical resources in the late game and can't buy any on the open market then your in trouble anyway. Either you try your darndest to stay out of war or just quit and start all over again.

	18-04-2002 17:26									#11
	Longbowmen Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Every once in a while, longbowmen are useful. Especially between the age of pike and the age of knights. Here is a look at the War of the Longbowmen:

http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/gotm5/0700ad.htm

	19-04-2002 14:20									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Longbowmen should be 4.3.1 with a shield value of 6 or 7, and they should be an English UU. Everyone esle should get crossbowmen.

Many successful medieval English armies were composed almost entirely of longbowmen - they were that good.

	19-04-2002 14:22									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Of course a Civ army compossed entirely of longbowmen is good.

	19-04-2002 15:42									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Now, that being said, I hardly ever build more than one longbow (I almost always build one as soon as I get Invention just so the AI can "fear" it),

Does this "fear" thing actually has an effect? I thought it was mainly the number of units you had that the AI takes into consideration, not the type of them.

	20-04-2002 02:43									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

I thought that all the things the advisor's say is a load of nonsense.

	20-04-2002 03:25									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I use longbowmen as a cheap home defense unit in the middle ages. A few running around on my road system keeps away small invasions at a very good price, and being on roads makes up for their poor mobility. That said, they are useless for attack unless for some reason you have no knights or bombard ability, and you must fight cities without bombarding them first (lots of cheap longbows to throw against the city).

	20-04-2002 04:24									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The problem is that you can't really upgrade them.