19-04-2002 16:17									#1
	Added HP for one unit ? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Can I get some ideas why/how this would be useful? Since I can already change the attack/defense to whatever I want, how is this fundamentally different?

Last edited by SpencerH on 19-04-2002 at 19:14

	19-04-2002 17:03									#2
	Re: Added HP for one unit Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Can I get some ideas why/how this would be useful? Since I can already change the attack/defense to whatever I want, how is this fundamentally different?

The most common use would be to add hp to modern units when compared to ancient units. No more tank v. spearman debates (hopefully). Hp is a more consistent solution than adjusting the a/d values.

	19-04-2002 17:46									#3
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By consistent do you mean that it will be a more commonly accepted mod?

	19-04-2002 18:05									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

It can appear to be roughly the same, but it's fundamentally different to change HP rather than A/D value.
First, it smooth or sharpen the probability curve (more HP => more regular results, less HP => less previsible results).
Second, it allows to better reflect some special properties for custom units.

	19-04-2002 19:52									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What about using the HP to reflect the armour (as well as experience). For example an armoured bowman vs a WWII era infantryman. A/D values are measures of a units potential to do damage to each other but not their ability to withstand that damage. The infantryman carries a weapon with greater range (although not greater useful range) but with better accuracy and rate of fire than the bowman. These values are reflected in the A/D values. What isnt taken into account is that the bowman is wearing armour thus increasing his chances of surviving a successful attack by the infantryman.

	19-04-2002 20:54									#6
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH A/D values are measures of a units potential to do damage to each other but not their ability to withstand that damage.

IMHO,

• the attack value is ONLY the measure of a unit's potential to do damage,
  
• the defense value is EXACTLY the measure of its ability to withstand damage.

	19-04-2002 21:06									#7
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Yes, and if one (after having increased hitpoints) STILL thinks that tanks are losing against spearmen too often, there's always the possibility of tweaking A/D values for late game units (let's say a modern armor gets an attack value of 32 or 40 instead of 24).

	19-04-2002 21:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep the defense value is EXACTLY the measure of its ability to withstand damage.

Nope, defense value is exactly the measure of its ability to avoid damage.

HPS value is exactly the measure of its ability to withstand damage.

	19-04-2002 21:37									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If I might add, a two case example.

Attacker Attack=5 5hps
Defender 1, defense 5, 10 hps
Defender 2, defense 10, 5 hps

Defender 1 has a 50% chance to avoid taking damage (and inflict it in return). It can survive 9 such hits, and dies on the 10th.

Defender 2 has a 66% chance to avoid taking damage (and inflict it in return). It can survive 4 such hits, and dies on the 5th.

Moreover, if defender 1 survives 5 attacks by the attacking unit before killing it (ie 50%), he still has 5 hps which puts him on an equall footing with the attacker right behind the first one.

Whereas if defender 2 survives with 2 hits, he is significantly weakened against the next one.


I would also mention someone elses idea in a mod. Infantry low defense high hps, tanks high defense low hps. This allows for two specific kinds of anti-unit artillery, which will be relatively ineffective against the wrong unit. Anti personnel with high rate of fire but low attack (kills infantry well and quickly, passable against tank) and anti-tank with low rate of fire but high attack (hits and kills tanks quickly, hits infantry easily but takes several turns to kill).

	19-04-2002 21:45									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm not personally trying to flatten out anything anymore. I've re-worked the HP and the A/D numbers for all the units in my personal mod.

I'm trying to get some idea what if any use this editor function has? I can see an advantage for a scenario but not necessarily for a longer game. For example, you might want basic infantry and a "ranger" unit allowing the ranger unit 1 more hp to account for its status as an "elite" unit. The problem is that any unit that survives in combat gains the experience/expertise of the "elite" unit, but in the game wont have the same HP. Are we to believe that such units deflect bullets better?

I think Fitz has the right terminology, and by that definition using HP's to account for armour will add significant variation.

stoneage spearman with no armour +0HP
spearman with leather armour +1HP
bronze age spearman with bronze armour +2HP
ironage spearman with iron armour +3HP

Each of these units should have the same attack and defense based on their weapon usage, but the armour gives the advantage to the ironage spearman.

	19-04-2002 21:46									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Fitz If I might add, a two case example. Attacker Attack=5 5hps Defender 1, defense 5, 10 hps Defender 2, defense 10, 5 hps Defender 1 has a 50% chance to avoid taking damage (and inflict it in return). It can survive 9 such hits, and dies on the 10th. Defender 2 has a 66% chance to avoid taking damage (and inflict it in return). It can survive 4 such hits, and dies on the 5th. Moreover, if defender 1 survives 5 attacks by the attacking unit before killing it (ie 50%), he still has 5 hps which puts him on an equall footing with the attacker right behind the first one. Whereas if defender 2 survives with 2 hits, he is significantly weakened against the next one. I would also mention someone elses idea in a mod. Infantry low defense high hps, tanks high defense low hps. This allows for two specific kinds of anti-unit artillery, which will be relatively ineffective against the wrong unit. Anti personnel with high rate of fire but low attack (kills infantry well and quickly, passable against tank) and anti-tank with low rate of fire but high attack (hits and kills tanks quickly, hits infantry easily but takes several turns to kill).

Thats it

	19-04-2002 21:48									#12
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With a good modder with some sense, this could make for a combat system that far outdoes Civ 2. I give this two thumbs way up.

The mod editor is far from complete, but this, with the bombard toggle you can set for the more modern sea/air units, things are looking pretty bright.