06-05-2002 17:06									#91
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I've been out of town since last Tuesday. Back to work today and catching up on this thread. Very interesting discussions!

I downloaded the new attachments and will review them when I get a chance.

	08-05-2002 17:30									#92
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Well, I finished the Campo Challenge.

My results don't compare to others posted here, so I see no reason to muddy the waters with a bunch of inferior saves. The basic approach was to get Crusaders, get Democracy/SOL, then switch to Fundamentalism. (Of course, there were plenty of missteps along the way...) Waves of Diplomats tore down city walls and bribed, with Crusaders (and, at the end, Dragoons) taking out the defenders.

Total victory came in (IIRC) 1862 with a score of just under 1000. Like I said, no comparison to some of the expert games posted here. But it gave me my 2nd Deity win, so I'm a happy camper.

Thanx for the challenge, Campo. It was fun.

	08-05-2002 20:52									#93
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Glad you enjoyed it, Jrabbit.

I played a new game using DrFell's approach to this one (after studying his save games).

The results were interesting. After Monarchy I rushed to Polytheism and built vet elephants, followed by Feudalism and vet Crusaders. My army went on a blitz of territory previously explored by diplos. I was doing great until I came to the Germans. They completed the Great Wall the turn before I reached them. By then I was short of diplos but had a decent army of vet attackers, so I took a chance and attacked Berlin (which was situated on a river). I lost my whole army to (I think) two phalanxes and a legion. One of the phalanxes was like a Super Defender -- it endured wave after wave without any loss of strength. That ended my hopes of a fast conquest.

However I learned a few lessons. One of the primary ones was that I didn't really enjoy the game (even disregarding my unfortunate battle for Berlin). I missed the city improvement process, the competition for wonders, the unit-building decisions, etc. I want the game to last long enough to enjoy those developments.

I'm thinking about having "Campo Challenge II", in which I'll pose some conditions for victory -- for example, several techs that have to be discovered, some number of Wonders to be built (probably not the specific wonders, just a given number), perhaps a minimum number of city improvements or city sizes, etc. I'd like to give this more thought but if there's any interest I'll be happy to do it.

Last edited by Campo on 08-05-2002 at 20:59

	08-05-2002 21:35									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Campo I'm thinking about having "Campo Challenge II", in which I'll pose some conditions for victory

There is a nice challenge of that kind offered by the game: it is named Space Ship

	08-05-2002 22:16									#95
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quote: There is a nice challenge of that kind offered by the game: it is named Space Ship

Is that the one where the human player tries to build a space ship to go to Alpha Centauri, and while doing so all of the AI civs attack relentlessly, turn after turn, intent only on tech theft and total destruction of the human? Yeah, I think I've heard of it.

	08-05-2002 22:59									#96
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I like early landing games, but the AI is much less hostile with tech gifting, which is necessary for an early landing. This usually means the game becomes a battle of trade empires. Of course this isn't necessarily a bad thing, these games call for a lot of skill, but you may find extreme early landing games lacking as you did the pure conquest game.

For future conquest games I suggest medium map with small or medium archipelago land. As I'm sure you now realise the settings for the first game contributed to the lack of depth in the optimal strategy. Small map, with all civs starting on the same continent close together is always an elly or maybe crusader rush game.

	21-05-2002 09:09									#97
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CAMPO

Thanks for the experience; this was a new mode for me. I learned that my usual tactics would be disasterous in an MP game. But I tried new ideas and completed the "kill all the civs in one turn" in 720a. Looking over the results I was not nearly focused enough on building vet killers and keeping the build orders lean. I think I could do better, and would participate in a new 'challenge.'

I am disappointed that most of the respondents did not save their attachments in v2.42 so I couldn't open them. I think I would have learned a lot, especially if I could have followed Dr. Fell's game. (it's probably asking a lot to hope that someone would send in an attachment of his game in 2.42 :love

I'll post some ideas that may be new in another missive. Thanks again .

	21-05-2002 09:42									#98
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A few things that might be useful from my game....

-I like to explore before laying down the first city. Open up the map to find sites and pop any nearby huts. I'll keep popping huts til I get a tech--NONs and cash are as important as building in the right place. I built London and York in 3700, and still got and revolted to Monarcy in 2450 b, with 5 cities.

-Build Canal cities to open up access across land bridges. I built one W of London below the grain, another E beyond the mountains after irragating the forest, and several others.

-I let the Aztecs build the Pyramids, then took it and all their cities but one. But only after I completed Mike's. Growth is a pain before that, but afterwards, the reduced food box is a path to bigger cities without revolting in and out of Republic. This was around 225 b.

-Probably others mentioned this. In my game the barbs took a Viking city. I set up a dip by it and used the Barb city as a Honeypot for NON Archers. I like that better than buying the city, which I finally did at the end. BTW, except for the Barb City I played 'no city bribe'. All the AI cities were taken by Military conquest.

This was fun!! I am constantly amazed at how cool CIV II is, and really wish 'it' could have been tweaked instead of....

	21-05-2002 17:11									#99
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quote: it's probably asking a lot to hope that someone would send in an attachment of his game in 2.42

I'm not aware of any way to open an MGE saved game and then save it in 2.42 format.

DrFell's approach was pretty straightforward: found maybe 8 cities (it's been a while since I looked at it), barracks in each, diplos to explore and bribe, vet elephants to conquer. However even after looking at his saved games I couldn't do it as quickly as he did.

In my game Barbs took an Aztec city. I used it as a NON unit farm just as you did the Viking city.

I agree with you about Civ -- I wish they'd have released the proverbial Civ 2.5 instead of Civ 3.

	21-05-2002 20:54									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Campo I'm not aware of any way to open an MGE saved game and then save it in 2.42 format.

This business of making sense of computer process is borderline magic to me and I am decidedly not an adept. You might have noticed that I didn't add an attachment, for instance. Fear of breaking something syndrome. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up for me.

	21-05-2002 21:15									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Campo DrFell's approach was pretty straightforward: found maybe 8 cities (it's been a while since I looked at it), barracks in each, diplos to explore and bribe, vet elephants to conquer. However even after looking at his saved games I couldn't do it as quickly as he did.

How quickly, especially the first time, is not as important as learning a new Strat. I'm sure you agree. What I wonder about is the balance of tax-v-science and whether any effort was made toward an SSC to speed advances?? What WOW's were built?? Any trade at all or was it "prowl and growl" from the start??

I think I started researching Poly in 2150b. If I understood the Big Picture of this Strat better I might go back and replay. I know it's been a while but whatever you can remember would be enlightening. Thanks

	21-05-2002 21:45									#102
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I can't recall his tax-science rates, but there wasn't any SCC development. IIRC (and I looked at everyone's save games so I might be confusing some), no wonders and no city improvements except for barracks. He used a few entertainers for happiness control. It was very sparse and direct.

I tried a game using his style. I could mimic the process but not the speed -- he's very efficient. I didn't continue that approach because it was too sparse for me; I like the city development process.

I can't recall his exact tech path. Fast to Monarchy, early Writing, then obviously to Polytheism for elephants. He might have had a few Crusaders towards the end but I'm not sure.

	21-05-2002 22:23									#103
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You don't need science after polytheism for a conquest game with these settings. Vet elephants will mash everything till Feudalism, which the AI wont get for ages anyway. If you have MPE you'll know their techs paths and can plan researching monotheism if necessary. Other than that taxes at 70%, lux at 30% is fine, so you can rushbuy elephants and diplos, and maybe the occasional phalanx.

	21-05-2002 23:42									#104
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Campo and DrSpike

I've been staring at your responses scratching my head, more or less dumb-
founded. That is so different from the usual for me; and I appreciate how I might also find this too sparse. Even the Mongols encouraged culture and science--in the cities that were left standing.

Oh, well! All I need is an attitude adjustment--who cares about those stinking temples anyway, or ego boosting WOW's and science, right?? I can already see I'll have to watch myself to stay focused; but I am inclined to try this just to find out what it's like. I hope it's not like kicking the dog.

Bloody Monk trying to convince heself this will be fun.......

	22-05-2002 02:16									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk (it's probably asking a lot to hope that someone would send in an attachment of his game in 2.42 :love

Try this:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2cedric.shtml
and tell us if it works...

	22-05-2002 02:47									#106
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Try this: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2cedric.shtml and tell us if it works...

Very interesting. I'll have to think about this as I am a bit intimidated by the following from that site...

DO NOT CONTACT ME WITH PROBLEMS RELATED TO INSTALLATION OR RUNNING OF THE PATCHES, if you cannot follow directions then you are too stupid for me to deal with as I have little patience.

I may be too stupid...certainly unskilled with computers.

	22-05-2002 04:19									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Very interesting. I'll have to think about this as I am a bit intimidated by the following from that site... DO NOT CONTACT ME WITH PROBLEMS RELATED TO INSTALLATION OR RUNNING OF THE PATCHES, if you cannot follow directions then you are too stupid for me to deal with as I have little patience.

Very encouraging...

I wouldn't be afraid of that...

	23-05-2002 04:16									#108
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Thanks ST.

Does anyone have any experience applying these (5) patches??

Sounds like a research project right up your alley, ST. Whata ya say??

	23-05-2002 04:45									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Sounds like a research project right up your alley, ST. Whata ya say??

Ay say nata, u hava ta spika a pura englese if you want there is a chance I understand you

	23-05-2002 06:06									#110
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You don't understand??

I was asking for help.

Never mind.

	23-05-2002 13:48									#111
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Just a word of warning - although several people have found thes 'patches' both useful and successful. They are not entirely legal (although Smash and I have already comes to blows over this...)

SG[1]

	23-05-2002 13:54									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk . Whata ya say??

Can you understand that some people post on this forum without being native english speakers?
Both ST and I, and quite a lot of other posters have been taught 'what do you say?' at school.
I confess that I would personally consider it polite not to use such kind of language ('b4, whataya,...', and the like).
Thank you to you all native speakers

	23-05-2002 14:01									#113
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L'exactitude est la politesse des rois...
La correction du langage pourrait être celle des correspondants à Apolyton.

(La Fayette, ready to fight for the use of correct english language on this forum)

	23-05-2002 14:09									#114
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La Fayette - before you "... formez nos bataillons ..." please remember that not all native english speakers have as good a grasp of the language as do ST and yourself.
It is very easy to be lazy in one's native tongue

SG[1]

	23-05-2002 16:44									#115
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quote: Her English is too good, he said, Which clearly indicates that she is foreign. While others are instructed in their native language, English people aren't.

"You did it", from My Fair Lady

	23-05-2002 17:26									#116
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Can you understand that some people post on this forum without being native english speakers?

I think that everybody must understand it, my english must be ridiculous.

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette I confess that I would personally consider it polite not to use such kind of language ('b4, whataya,...', and the like).

For me, this is OK, sometimes I learn something, sometimes I don't understand...
In fact, I understood "Whata ya say??" well, but I didn't understand "Sounds like a research project right up your alley" ! I suppose this is a perfect english...
Bloody Monk, I thought you wanted to say that you will follow my alley (I often research something) and you will try it yourself.
I am prepared to help, but don't you want to try it first and then post problems (if arise)?

quote: Originally posted by SG[1] please remember that not all native english speakers have as good a grasp of the language as do ST...

Good joke!

	23-05-2002 18:02									#117
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ST,

Your English is fine. Sometimes you phrase things a little differently from a native speaker, but there's never a problem understanding you.

Thirty-five years ago I spoke decent Romanian, but I've since joined the vast majority of Americans who only know one language. I think it's a national shortcoming (and partly a consequence of our geographical isolation) that we place such little importance on multi-lingualism.

quote: Sounds like a research project right up your alley

That simply means that it seems like a research project that is very appropriate for you. "Right up your alley" is idiomatic for "compatible with one's interests or qualifications" (American Heritage Dictionary online). It says the orign is Middle English (1600's).

	23-05-2002 19:17									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Just a word of warning - although several people have found thes 'patches' both useful and successful. They are not entirely legal (although Smash and I have already comes to blows over this...) SG[1]

Thanks SG[1]. I appreciate your helpful advise.

As I mentioned, I am not at all skilled at these advanced computer practices. Perhaps saying I had "fear of breaking something syndrome" was not understood by all. Perhaps I should have said..."I have a bad feeling about this"; based on my lack of experience patching and the very intimidating disclaimer, I really need some help here...like does this work or is this useful??? Thankfully, you SG[1], understood perfectly that I was asking for help and you did.

The legallity angle occurred to me, but vaguely. I missed the thread you referred to. Am I to understand that your position is that these patches are at best unauthorised if not outright illegal?? Maybe I should just go back to the game. This is getting way over my head.

	23-05-2002 19:27									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits La Fayette - before you "... formez nos bataillons SG[1]

Well, let's hope that "le sang impur n'abreuvera pas nos sillons"
I propose that we all speak in french, if our misuse of english is too shameful
Qu'en pensez-vous mes amis ? La langue de Molière était parlée dans toutes les cours d'Europe, et ici à Apolyton, ne sommes-nous pas les successeurs de tous ces despotes plus ou moins éclairés ?

	23-05-2002 19:32									#120
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Yep that is exactly my position.
Although I entirely sympathise - Microprose/Firaxis/Infogames or whoever actually possesses the Civ2 franchise is serving the public very poorly, if at all. Civ2 has virtually become 'abandonware', but that term itself is really only a poor justification for piracy.
Since you hail from the 'Land of the Free' you should have no difficulty in acquiring MGE from a dealer at a suitable bargain basement price -- but if that proves to be impossible you are left with few alternatives to Cedric's 'patch'. However, if you choose to take this route please ensure that you make a backup copy of the entire Civ2 directory and contents - easily done in Windows so that in the event of disasters you have lost nothing...

SG[1]