20-04-2002 10:24									#31
	Support Apolyton

but when it takes a company, i don't even know how long it's been sicne civ came out, lets just say 6 months for the sake of argument, when it takes a company six months to release a single player game that is remotely stable but is still realitvely unchallenging despite the hard coded cheats the AI so readily abuses, multiplayer is a neccessity. i decided to get civ3 anyway because i thought sid was a genius. his first two games ruled. i played civ 1 when i was only 10, and i played it for hours. civ2 was far better, and i played it even longer. i looked at CTP as a black mark on sid's regime, despite his "not being there". it tarnished the name of civ, and vicariously the name of sid himself.

when civ3 came out, i figured it would rule. i hoped it was everything i wanted, but i EXPECTED that it would be everything they TOLD ME it was. but it wasn't. maybe it will be some day. eventully.

(i'm becomming fond of saying that)

	20-04-2002 10:52									#32
	Tired of ads?

Aren't you being a little unreasonable KruX? You hold Sid responsible for CTP even though he didn't do it. Why not shoot Mark because cfc doesn't have an SMAC forum?

As for stable... I'm not sure what you are on about there. Civ3 has never crashed on my comp. I have never had a corrupt saved game. Then again I'm not hacking the game. Such is life, I guess my experience would be different if I did things differently.

As for challenging. Yes, if you put the time in you will find ways to beat any game, badly if you follow a certain path. You have found one of those paths. Rush, rush, rush, rush. Not everybody does that. Even when I try I find it hard to force myself not to build a little. My failing, I'm working on it.

Eventually that is a key term. Eventually the concerns of the MP crowd will be met. It's a royal pain that it is what it is. Look at the bright side. If MP were first and SP were neglected, I'd be flaming your chats. Isn't that a pleasant thought?

	20-04-2002 11:22									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ye sit is a plesant thought, because i wouldn't be the one telling firaxis how to do their jobs.

	20-04-2002 15:34									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My brief summary of yesterday's chat :
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=47932

Only questions with a more intersting answer than "no comment" there (believe it or not, it's almost 20000 characters )

	20-04-2002 16:39									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I rember one thing.

BOMBARDING CHANCES WHEN ATTACKING CITIES?

Soren answered:
probably 50% unit, 25% buildings, 25% population
(it's chance to target unit or building, chace to hit depends from bombard & defense values)

	20-04-2002 20:30									#36
	Remove this text

Here's my summary.

1530 Finally prove to self that you cant add units with 1.21.

1545 Log onto java chat. About 30 people. UberKruX drooling over voodoo dolls.

1550 Ask about awareness of loack of unit addition -> no answer

1555 27 people log off. Was it something I said? Being a newbie to these chats I wonder if their connections have gone down

1610 decide to try IRC on other PC

1615 Download mIRC, load, log on to #Apolyton. Double log on (somehow) uses 2nd alias.

1620 disconnect from java

1625 scan text from IRC ->blurb, blurb, blurb-> "no comment"

Smoke emanates from ears

1630 Try to send question about unit addition-> no response

Am I connected? What the hells going on? Java is definitely better!

1635 observe message about java chat room

1640 disconnect from IRC

1645 Log onto java chat -> same three people including me

1650 Log off java, back onto IRC->blurb, blurb, blurb->

Hagbart "what about adding units (paraphrased)"
Firaxian -> "no comment"

Blood vessel explodes in eyeball. Flames shoot from top of head.

1655 Log onto #Apolytonpublic-> lots of people apparently waiting to send message to the Firaxians

1700 massive log-off

1701 Blow off steam on general forum with rant on general forum

1720 Gramphos posts modified copytool-> still pi$$ed-off, but somewhat mollified.

Could someone who actually knows how these things work tell me what happened connection-wise (yes I've read the read me).

	20-04-2002 21:49									#37
	Got spare money?

i think the soren voodoo doll worked, but i couldn't find a sombrero to finish the dan one

	21-04-2002 06:30									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither alva848. Yes. If Mark has a failing it is being too tolerant. But then, that's why I'm here and not on some other civ site. I like the 'freedom' of Poly, believe it or not. Some prefer cfc. To each his/her own. I'll take arguments with Lib over stifled debate any day. Believe it or not, I learned a bit from Lib. Yes about the 1.21 theme, but the Firaxians were hand-cuffed from answering even the most basic extrapolative questions based on the state of the game as of 1.21. In the last chat they were game for at least a little speculation. Not in the least this time. The MP thing... Kids will be kids... They want what they want, and they want it NOW.

on one hand i applaud Mark, i mean after all it is the "internet", takink on all it"s good and bad(sounds like wedding vowls, urghh :: )
but if people can't behave, one has has to interveen(sp!), act!

about learning more then 1.21, if they are handcuffed, what do you expected them to do,say
i can understand there position, (as they can see ours)
it's never someONE's fault.
we do expect a lot!
becarefull, original thought comming on!!! ,
it used to be (civ1 and early civ2) a case of programmers(ai) against user(s) (us) (meaning playing sp, no forums and maybe a strategie book after 6 months to a year!!)
now (civ3) it's them against a 100.000 players ( mp to the extreme )

i know for sure that if you(and by that i mean anyone) would never come these forums (apolyton, civfanatics, etc...) it would be much more enjoyable game, experiece!! . i.e. exploits,flaws,strategies, tactics. for us it's to easy now, we use the ai to ai trade (1.17) flaw in real life on these boards. they have no way to patch this, they have to deal with it regardless!!
gonna stop here

	21-04-2002 07:11									#39
	Put an end to popups!

Beware cats in packs. Very difficult to herd...

	21-04-2002 07:14									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

tiger, tiger burning bright
in the forests of the night.
what iIMMORTAL hand or eye
could frame they fearfull symmetry

	21-04-2002 18:26									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

my god some people take the art of whining to a new level. NO MP? may have to pay for it? get over it.
dont like teh changes? dont liek the answers? act like a 12 yrd old child and throw a verbal tantrum.. nice.. effective and nice..
how about ya delete the game and attempt to do something more constructive with yer life.. like therapy

	22-04-2002 02:58									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Tre976 my god some people take the art of whining to a new level. NO MP? may have to pay for it? get over it. dont like teh changes? dont liek the answers? act like a 12 yrd old child and throw a verbal tantrum.. nice.. effective and nice.. how about ya delete the game and attempt to do something more constructive with yer life.. like therapy

... or Alpha Centauri...

Haha! SMAC/X still rules!

But hey, its ok, you just sit there and wait for this civ game to be done while im off to play some ubernice Alpha Centauri games. SP and MP.

Civ3 will rule in 1 or 2 years. Ill be back then.

	22-04-2002 18:39									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I can understand Firaxis living under a non-disclosure agreement for discussing future stuff. Perhaps one of them should come and conclusively state that they can't talk about any new content at all, only questions about how the live code works will be accepted. Then we all know where we stand. Perhaps they've got a gagging order preventing them from discussing their non-disclosure agreement?

	22-04-2002 19:54									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

Why would they have a non-disclosure agreement? I'm not saying they dont, but why? Is some competitor gonna come out with an official editor before them?

The read-me came out wednesday, the patch came out late thursday (but apolyton was down part of the day), throw in some work time and you have a situation where there wasnt a chance to actually test the new patch. Therefore there weren't many questions about the patch that weren't "why cant we....", "wheres my MP?" , -> "No comment" type situations. I'm not privy to any planning of the chat, but it would have been better set up for a week after the patch release.

	22-04-2002 20:47									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

spencer, i mailed a newsletter giving url's to download the patch and informing about the chat to 10000 people over 30 hours before the chat. something tells me that some of them did play with the patch for some time....

	22-04-2002 22:37									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by MarkG spencer, i mailed a newsletter giving url's to download the patch and informing about the chat to 10000 people over 30 hours before the chat. something tells me that some of them did play with the patch for some time....

I'm not trying to point any fingers here. I'm sure you sent word asap. I'm just pointing out some realities and suggesting that there might have been better questions (and possibly answers) if there had been more time to analyse the patch. I'll bet I wasn't the only one at the chat (if I was actually at the chat , see above) who hadnt had time for more than just a cursory glance at the patch.

What kind of questions and responses are you likely to get with 30 hrs notice? If future chats are delayed by a week, hotheads (such as myself) will have had time to calm down, we will have had time to analyse the patch, and that analysis will be on the boards so the Firaxians wont be caught out (too badly). Seems to me thats better all around.

	22-04-2002 22:51									#47
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

What about having one chat per month?

That way after some time playing and analyzing we could ask constructive things.

Like:
How works that & that?

Or did you plan to adress this bug (feature), etc...

It happens so often in startgey forums that there are many unanswered questions, which could probably be easily answered by Firaxis.

	23-04-2002 00:00									#48
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Is it possible that they answered "No Comment" because everytime they have tried to give a reasonable answer to some of you, you have attacked them for not making a different game? Is it possible you are looking at this situation through a cracked mirror?

Yes, and yes.

Give them a break. Is it their fault they didn't make the game you wanted? No. Is it their fault they were forced to release the game several months early if they wanted to be in on it at all? No. Is it your fault you are being an a$$hole? Yes.

Steele

	23-04-2002 00:31									#49
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by steelehc Is it possible that they answered "No Comment" because everytime they have tried to give a reasonable answer to some of you, you have attacked them for not making a different game? Is it possible you are looking at this situation through a cracked mirror? Yes, and yes. Give them a break. Is it their fault they didn't make the game you wanted? No. Is it their fault they were forced to release the game several months early if they wanted to be in on it at all? No. Is it your fault you are being an a$$hole? Yes. Steele

You talkin to me?

	23-04-2002 03:45									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

Maybe you are on to something there...

What I really, really wanted was Civ 2 MPGE, except fixed, bigger and better, and with more features.

Their idea seems to have been 'back to basics' (stripping away so many important features) + graphical facelift.

Actually, Civ 3 reminds me much more of Civ 1 rather than 2.

So I am 'mad' at them for making a different game, in a sense....but if we just could get a powerful editor!!

	23-04-2002 04:10									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

agreed seeker. wheyever they did to the game, they veered off course a little. the border system, the resource system, and (dare i say it?) the culture are all GREAT ideas, but firaxis lost touch with their civ roots during the proces...