20-04-2002 05:28									#1
	Still no solution to spearman vs tank problem. Increase Your PM Length

I still think it would be a good idea to enable free upgrades to very obsolete AI units. This would essentially prevent the Spearman/Tank situation, without changing the unit values themselves.

	20-04-2002 05:36									#2
	CHANGE UNIT VALUES!!! Increase the size of your Attachments

Changing Firaxis' stupid unit values is an absloute MUST. I would have used the game as a frisbee three months ago if I didn't.

All post-gunpowder units must be a lot stronger; resources made more available; Espionage made a lot cheaper; useless units such as the helicopter, F-15, privateer, submarine, and explorer (the nukes, too) changed into something more realistic, more historical, and more PLAYABLE than the mindless crap Firaxis slapped together. Naval units also need to be stronger, faster, and no bombardment for ironclads and frigates.

There have been numerous threads on that topic on this and the other forum.

	20-04-2002 05:39									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You can change the amount of hit points each unit has. +or- 20%.

Give ancient units -20%
whatever the name of this age is units -10%
Industrial units +10%
Modern units +20%

	20-04-2002 05:43									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Does that make much difference Tuberski?

	20-04-2002 05:58									#5
	Re: Still no solution to spearman vs tank problem. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Grrr I still think it would be a good idea to enable free upgrades to very obsolete AI units. This would essentially prevent the Spearman/Tank situation, without changing the unit values themselves.

Funny, that kind of stuff is being created by the SLICers everyday in the CTP2 Mod community...

Oh well, can't have everything here!

	20-04-2002 06:01									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well I can't find a location from where to download CtP II in it's entirety.

	20-04-2002 06:11									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Grrr Does that make much difference Tuberski?

I'm not sure, I don't have the patch yet. but it seems to me that a regular tank with 3 hit points and 16 AR will beat a spearman with 1 Hp and a 2 DR, much more often. You can also turn of the thing that holds the random seed, so if you DO lose you can reload and get a different result.

	20-04-2002 06:13									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

I need to find that random seed option. That may be of great use in these situations.

	20-04-2002 06:14									#9
	Support Apolyton

I didn't realize there was a tank vs spearman problem.

I think there is more of a problem of people playing for the easy win on levels below their ability.

The last game I played (on emperor), there were no ancient units anywhere at least during the industrial age. there had been continuous warfare and in the end, I had to kill maybe 500 mech and regular infantry to win. But no where did my modern or industrial units come up against the ancients.

I agree (for once) with Coracle that this has been discussed exhaustively with solutions before. (sigh)

(of course, this is not to say that I have not had frustrating and unlikely defeats, but I only move with overwhelming force, so that the random defeat doesn't screw me.)

	20-04-2002 06:16									#10
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Grrr Well I can't find a location from where to download CtP II in it's entirety.

You can buy a complete copy with documentation for something like $10 so there really isn't a need to steal it.

	20-04-2002 06:19									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree with asleepathewheel I always try to use overwhelming force when I go into battle.

The whole thing doesn't really matter to me either way.

	20-04-2002 06:20									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Not in New Zealand. . I spent about that much on both CtP and Civ III and it wasn't worth it.

	20-04-2002 17:55									#13
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Grrr Not in New Zealand. . I spent about that much on both CtP and Civ III and it wasn't worth it.

Search www.ebay.com for "call to power". There is currently at least one ctpII for sale.

	20-04-2002 19:20									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

"Still no solution to spearman vs tank problem. "

How can you say that when you haven't even tried the hit point bonus solution?

	20-04-2002 22:03									#15
	Remove this text

The best thing Firaxis could do is to give obsolete units a new look in new eras. For example, a spearman in the modern age would look like some rag-headed militant sporting revolvers and molotov cocktails. People could live with the occasional loss after that.

They alresdy update the worker (and leaders), why not make it for some other units, too?

	20-04-2002 22:49									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Hurricane The best thing Firaxis could do is to give obsolete units a new look in new eras. For example, a spearman in the modern age would look like some rag-headed militant sporting revolvers and molotov cocktails. People could live with the occasional loss after that. They alresdy update the worker (and leaders), why not make it for some other units, too?

That is a great idea. Keep the same states, just give it a better graphic and name.

	20-04-2002 23:10									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Hurricane The best thing Firaxis could do is to give obsolete units a new look in new eras. For example, a spearman in the modern age would look like some rag-headed militant sporting revolvers and molotov cocktails. People could live with the occasional loss after that. They alresdy update the worker (and leaders), why not make it for some other units, too?

I concur. Make it so #1.

	21-04-2002 01:09									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

Acooper, I prefer to leave the game as unmodded as possible. Firaxis should solve things such as that.

	21-04-2002 01:16									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

How many times have your tanks met defeat to the pungee sticks of doom Grrr!! ?

	21-04-2002 01:25									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This morning, I attacked Reading, with 20 tanks. They killed the musketmen, and riflemen, and then I lost 4 tanks on 5 spearmen! Is that bad enough for you?

	21-04-2002 01:33									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Grrr This morning, I attacked Reading, with 20 tanks. They killed the musketmen, and riflemen, and then I lost 4 tanks on 5 spearmen! Is that bad enough for you?

Holy! Can you post a save at the beginning of that turn? autosave? I'd really like to have at least one confirmed sighting of this phenomenon.

	21-04-2002 01:36									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

BTW. I agree wholeheartedly that auto upgrade of obsolete units from previous eras would be a good idea. It would be the end of this... interesting topic once and for all.

	21-04-2002 01:37									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I switched the Autosave off because of the lag of compression, and I don't bother saving often, because unlike CivII the game doesn't really crash at regular intervals. I will try and play the 20 turns leading up to this, and post a sav, but I don't think I'll have the same bad luck this time.

	21-04-2002 02:20									#24
	Remove this text

HP Bonus will undoubtedly help stop the Spearman killing a Tank B.S. for a simple reason. The units fight in "rounds"... the victor of the round is random, but it does depend on their strength... the more hit points you have, the more rounds, and thus the Tank has more of an oppurtunity to come out the winner since its a lot stronger. Adding more hit points downplays the randomness of combat.

	21-04-2002 02:52									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Until I actually see a save or screenshot of a spearman killing a tank, I will not believe it. I have NEVER seen an even of this kind, and as many people complain about it, I would assume that someone would manage to locate a save and screenshot. Unless the only people having this problem are those with Autosave turned off, and no Print Screen key...

Steele

	21-04-2002 03:12									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I agree, it's not somethin I've ever seen. I think that it's more of an urban legend than anything. And in the unlikely chance that it actually does happen to one of my tanks, I'm not going to be complaining about it months and months later.

	21-04-2002 06:15									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

It does exist. Killer posted a save game and a series of screenshots over at Civfanatics some months ago.

I think it has happened to me, but I can't really remember. I don't really care if it does exist since it's so rare anyway.

In my current game, I have given medieval units +1 hp, industrial units +2, and modern units +3. I'm only in the Medieval era right now, but it seems to be working just fine. Those cities defended by spearmen fell much easier to knights with just that little extra hp point.

	21-04-2002 06:17									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Just wanting to say : phalanx killing tank is NOT a legend. Though, it happens extremely rarely. Why no screenshot ? Well, because usually, you can't know that a phalanx will win before the end of the fight :P
And it's a pain in the @ss to redo a turn just to take a screen...

	21-04-2002 06:49									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

I had a Spearman turn back a Modern Armor. It didn't kill. It just forced a retreat. I was shocked, but I dealt with it. I mean, it was a large city I was attacking and I hadn't prepped the assault by bombing buildings and population to smitherines, so the city itself gave the Spearman a rather high defensive value. It shouldn't have happened, but it did, and I'm ok with that because it's rare, and it made a great tale for the Stories Form...

	21-04-2002 06:50									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The "spearman vs. tank" phenomonon is a specious, unecessesary argument made by people who cannot accept defeat or the idea of "random numbers" without a serious hit to their pride. The combat system is by no means perfect, but the actual occurance of the phenomonon isn't even a gameplay problem unless you decide you can invade an entire country with 4 tanks (something that could be done easily in Civ2... one reason why the game was so easy to beat).

A necessary sacrafice was made by the developers: They sacraficed an unecessary example of quasi-"realism" for a (more) balanced combat system that makes the game more challenging, without nearly so much cheating as Civ2.