22-04-2002 03:05									#1
	v1.21 is it worth it? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have a confession to make. I haven't played Civ3 for nearly three months now. Now, I have always loved the civ series and I have spent countless days of my life playing Civ, Civ2, CTP, CTP2, & SMAC and as soon as Civ3 was availible I rushed out and bought it. I figured it was a slam dunk. I had so loved its predicesors that there was no way I could not love Civ3; I was wrong.
Despite the bad tast in my mouth I hung in there. We must give them a chance I said. When others condemned them I stayed silent because I thought for sure with a patch or two Civ3 would become yet another classic. To date that has not happened.
I could enumerate Civ3's short comes but I think most of us know them by now. I found myself spending more time playing the modded CTP2 then I did Civ3. The last time I tried Civ3 was when patch 1.17f came out and I found the experience totally dissatisfying. I was bored to tears and I am a Civ die-hard.
The Civ3 team has made a good faith effort to fix their product and that is why I'm still on the Civ3 forum. Some where in the back of my mind I still feel like they may start to treat their fan's concerns with the directness that is deserved. Thus I have written this post.
I have not yet downloaded v1.21f because I want to hear from the other people here at Apolyton first. Now, I would like to ask those of you in the know whether or not this patch fixes the worst problems of Civ3. Should I give Civ3 another chance? Does v1.21 make Civ3 as an enjoyable and consuming experience as the other parts of the series? I do so hope so but I have been burned in the past and so I am reserving my judgment.
Thank you all for your imput,

John Jackson A.K.A. Oerdin

Last edited by Oerdin on 22-04-2002 at 03:57

	22-04-2002 03:22									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, it is worth it.

There are no serious bugs/annoyances left in the gameplay, not as far as I can see.

Sure, we lack multiplayer, and the editor is not good enough for most people. But what counts the most at this stage is the gameplay, and it's finally really good. After this patch it truly feels solid, like civ2 did. I suggest you give it a try.

Of course it's not that hard to think of things you'd like to have improved (like a way to keep track of your trade deals for example), but the beta feeling is finally gone, and for the first time things works like intended.

	22-04-2002 04:12									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

What are the biggest causes of your disappointment? Some issues have been addressed, but not all.

	22-04-2002 04:30									#4
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Cesa Yes, it is worth it. There are no serious bugs/annoyances left in the gameplay, not as far as I can see. Sure, we lack multiplayer, and the editor is not good enough for most people. But what counts the most at this stage is the gameplay, and it's finally really good. After this patch it truly feels solid, like civ2 did. I suggest you give it a try. Of course it's not that hard to think of things you'd like to have improved (like a way to keep track of your trade deals for example), but the beta feeling is finally gone, and for the first time things works like intended.

Thank you Cesa. I value what you have to say.

	23-04-2002 02:02									#5
	another side Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Read all the post on the patch. A LARGE number of players are complaining that it is not a good patch . I believe I will stick with 1.16 for the time being,there seems to be to many bugs in 1.21. Perhaps 1.22 will be better.

	23-04-2002 02:32									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1.21 is definitely far better than 1.17, and a bit better then 1.16, because of new options and large res. bug fix.

	23-04-2002 02:37									#7
	patch Increase the size of your Attachments

READ ALL other threads and also Civ Fanatics forum there are a LOT of people who are unhappy. I have read 100's of postings and I would say 60% unhappy 40% happy to a point. Very few say it is 100% with no pronlems. Check them out.

	23-04-2002 03:14									#8
	Re: patch Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by roalan READ ALL other threads and also Civ Fanatics forum there are a LOT of people who are unhappy. I have read 100's of postings and I would say 60% unhappy 40% happy to a point. Very few say it is 100% with no pronlems. Check them out.

Funny!

Now look at the polls both at civfanatics & apolyton.
How would you rate 1.21f patch.
Results are GREAT!

So don't worry and install the patch.

	23-04-2002 03:15									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You should check the polls both here and on Civfanatics that rate the patch. Only very few give it low ratings, pretty much everyone think it's really good. This is, of course regarding gameplay, not the editor, but I figured gameplay was what Oerdin was interested in.

Even if i seldom post, I read these forums often, and I can't find the 'negative' threads you talk about roalan. What is it people don't like?

	23-04-2002 03:40									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Early days, but so far I like it, and my impression from the forum is that those who basically like Civ 3 are pleased with this patch, and many of those who don't like it will never like it.

It may be a matter of taste as to whether something is good or not. You liked CTP2 - so did I, but many hated it and declared it fundamentally flawed (don't know why). I gave up because of the AI's every-turn border violations. I never could get the mod to fix that - which mod do you use?

Unlike Firaxis, who are improving / finishing their product, Activision dumped CTP after poor sales. Poor sales which were not helped, I expect, by the torrent of fury against the game here on the net. If the Internet had been there for gamers in 91, Civ 1 might even have got criticised out of existence.

So, which part of Civ 2 do you miss most - the endless caravanning, the familiarity of howitzer-blitzes, the lack of borders, the limited diplomacy, stack-death?

Civ 3 - perfect it ain't, (better trade& diplo interface w.b nice) but nor were the others, and I've come to accept that there's no such thing as perfect software. Perfection is too subjective, and development too expensive.

So I don't think there's need to worry that Fireaxis are not treating fans concerns "with directness". The worst mistake they could make would be to try and introduce everyone's demands. Design decisions should not be rushed and in today's highly complex software, it's almost impossible to have both (a) stability and (b) constant change. They're fixing bugs, improving the AI, finishing the editor, and generally getting there.

What is there to lose by downloading the patch and trying a game?

	23-04-2002 04:08									#11
	patch Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I was not checking polls I was reading comments.

	23-04-2002 04:10									#12
	patch Got spare money?

In this forum alone check out the top line or so " Bugs and problems", under Gereral there are , at this writting, 125 mostly complaints about the patch.

	23-04-2002 04:14									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus So I don't think there's need to worry that Fireaxis are not treating fans concerns "with directness". The worst mistake they could make would be to try and introduce everyone's demands. . . What is there to lose by downloading the patch and trying a game?

How about a lot more of my time and life??

As for Firaxis and fans concerns, we complained for months about how slow the game is, so Firaxis' solution is to make it even slower, while taking away a popular cheat like "multi.sav", while not giving us scenario-building - that they will try to sell us soon!

Better Firaxis HAD dumped Civ 3 a few months ago - and started on Civ 4.

For five years we discussed on forums what we'd like to see in Civ 3, such as a First Strike Response option in nuclear war. We didn't get that, but we did get crazy stuff like Culture Flippinng.

	23-04-2002 04:40									#14
	patch Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Don't get me wrong I like Civ3 better in most ways then Civ2. I would like to see real scenarios is C3 because C2 scenarios were stupid especially the WW2 ones. As a war gamer for 30 years and A.R.E.A. rated the scenarios in C2 were YUK. Otherwise as I said Civ.3 is better then Civ2. But I am using the 1.16patch and will not switch until the current patch is better then 1.16 and so far that is not what I have read in a large number of reports..
I also made a lot of changes to Marals Map and heard from some that they may be destroyed by patch 1.21f So I will stick to 1.16f until better comes out. Perhaps they should start Civ4 but not for $50

	23-04-2002 05:01									#15
	Re: patch Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by roalan Don't get me wrong I like Civ3 better in most ways then Civ2. I would like to see real scenarios is C3 because C2 scenarios were stupid especially the WW2 ones. As a war gamer for 30 years and A.R.E.A. rated the scenarios in C2 were YUK. Otherwise as I said Civ.3 is better then Civ2. But I am using the 1.16patch and will not switch until the current patch is better then 1.16 and so far that is not what I have read in a large number of reports.. I also made a lot of changes to Marals Map and heard from some that they may be destroyed by patch 1.21f So I will stick to 1.16f until better comes out. Perhaps they should start Civ4 but not for $50

Why not rewrite those mods to 1.21f format?

That way you won't have problem anymore.

Anyway, many intresting things can be done with new patch.

For exaple I made one scenario which uses RANDOM MAP.

All players start with several unis, settlers and industrial tech.

It was fun.
It started to look like real Scenario.

	23-04-2002 05:09									#16
	patch Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I would re-write them if I was sure I could use marlas Map. I like to play on planet earth with actual starting positions. I usually do not like random maps. Also it would be a lot of work to put back the changes to Marals Map even if they worked.Perhaps in future patches they will pput a planet earth with actual starting positions??

	23-04-2002 05:15									#17
	Re: patch Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by roalan I would re-write them if I was sure I could use marlas Map. I like to play on planet earth with actual starting positions. I usually do not like random maps. Also it would be a lot of work to put back the changes to Marals Map even if they worked.Perhaps in future patches they will pput a planet earth with actual starting positions??

Aha, you are worring about starting positions.

Then best thing would be to wait for new release of unofficial tools compatibile with 1.21f. (which would be realy soon)

	23-04-2002 05:25									#18
	patch Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thank you sounds good to me!. I also worry about losing all the changes to Marals Map but from what I have been told I should not lose them when starting a new game . I would lose them in a saved game. I do not change saved games. I also have read that when scrolling marals map, for some, one can only scroll down to the equator and not the bottom half of the map. So you see it is to risky to try the patch ,unless I give it a try on another computer?I have been mulling it over ,the computer is a lap top only 450Mzh and 64MB Ram but I would only have to determine if the patch worked or not. Also the lap top is W98 and my P4 is WME. A possible Big difference.

	23-04-2002 05:28									#19
	Re: patch Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by roalan READ ALL other threads and also Civ Fanatics forum there are a LOT of people who are unhappy. I have read 100's of postings and I would say 60% unhappy 40% happy to a point. Very few say it is 100% with no pronlems. Check them out.

Where????

	23-04-2002 05:36									#20
	patch Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

for starters see the top of this page. 126 complaints about "bugs and issues" go to civfanatics.com and see a lot more. Look at other threads on this site in the general files and others.

	23-04-2002 07:02									#21
	Re: patch Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by roalan for starters see the top of this page. 126 complaints about "bugs and issues" go to civfanatics.com and see a lot more. Look at other threads on this site in the general files and others.

Have you actually read those 126 posts? Equating 126 posts with 126 people reporting problems is dead wrong, and even a lot of the complaints are regarding relatively trivial things and/or anomalies that hit one particular user. (I stopped after the first couple pages, since it was getting boring.)

My own first impression is that 1.21f is the best to date, even if I did have to hunt down how to do the "KeepRes=1" trick again to get my 1600x1200 resolution back. Maybe there are problems lurking deep inside that will change my mind, but so far, after playing a Monarch-level game into the dawn of the modern era, the only thing that particularly annoys me about the new patch is that "j" no longer affects fortified units (which is still better than 1.16f, which didn't have stack movement at all).

Nathan

	23-04-2002 07:13									#22
	patch Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I understand all 12now 7 are not all different complaints some folks wrote more then one post. I just found and especially the civfanatic site a large enough number of complaints to satisfy me NOT to install 1.21f. I am happy with 1.16f. I notice that the hugh world has been reduced way done to quite a small world,to speed up the game??? I do not like to play on small worlds that is one reason I like Marlas Hugh Map with actual starting positions.

	23-04-2002 07:38									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Roalan, when you say that there are lots of people that post that they don't like the patch, this doesn't mean that everybody don't.

Lots of people like me (that like the patch) don't go around the forums saying that they like the patch.
Can you imagine if everibody would start a "I LOVE 1.21F PATCH " thread?
That would be crazy .

To answer to Oerdin:
I personally think that 1.21f is a good patch, still some imperfections but it's good.
And if you don't like it just download one or two of the MODs in the file FORUM, Personally during 1.17f (I didn't like that one) I played almost all my games with the Patch Suggestion Mod of Player1 (Very good BTW).
I heard that Korn's Blitz Mod is also extremely good and balanced, but I personally prefer to use a more "conservative MOD till the Fix Bug Patch release time will be ended.

Hope this answer you Question.

Saluti

	23-04-2002 07:45									#24
	patch Get a bigger avatar today!

Thank you it does. Keep in mind out of say 100 people 50-60 do not like the patch then 40-50 still do. I think the company should have done a bit better and not had so much controversy. They have already issues 4 or more patches ,A lot of complaints are why did they rush the game in the first place?

	23-04-2002 08:30									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Wel, the answer I thought of to that is that they wanted to release the game in time for Christmas spending period. (and i strongly disagree with such a thing)

The first version was almost unplayable, but at least they released soon lots of patches and now almost all bugs are just a bad memory. I'm sure that soon the defined version will be out

BTW, I'm not trying to convince you that you must like the patch, If you don't like it and prefer Version 1.16f you are free to do it.

Saluti

	23-04-2002 08:36									#26
	patch Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

since civ3 is close but not my favorite game I will stick with 1.16 at this time. Believe it or not I like BOTF better. I probably am the only person in the world to say this. I also like Alpha Centuri better and wish Civ3 was as good because I like the setting for civ3 better. I just bought Europa Universallis 11 and from what I see on their forums it is a uch better game then civ3. There are a number of threads that ask for a comparison between the two and UA2 wins hands down. Someday I will play it. I am also looking forward to Moo3 but notice that the thread from Apolyton re Moo3 is turned very negative toward the game and it is not out yet.

	23-04-2002 08:41									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yup.
I also heard that Europa Universalis II is great.
I will probably buy it as soon as i fix the "lack of Euro in my wallet" bug .

Saluti

	23-04-2002 08:45									#28
	games Got spare money?

One problem I have with the new games is they are mostly RTS and I like TBS better. I think EU2 will be my last RTS game I buy. I woould have liked AOE and AOQ if I did not have to chase units all over the map all the time. I wish to companies would put an option in their games for either RTS or TBS.

	23-04-2002 08:52									#29
	I claudius Increase Your PM Length

I just noticed you are from Italy and I was just watching a great 13 part show named " I Claudius" It is a life story written by Claudius,with some liberties taken, it is from 10BC to 75 AD and is about the life of those Emperors and the ever present Livia. Claudius is played by Derek Jacoby (spelling?) It is an old show shown on PBS a number of years ago but now repeated. It is a classic in the States.

	23-04-2002 09:05									#30
	Remove this text

Claudius surely one of the good Emperor (i kind of divide the Roman Emperor into good and bad).

He received that name because he had problemes with his leg and he was (In latin terms) Claudicans. From this his name and from him a very popular name in the Roman Empire and in Modern Italy.

I was in the US till last month for an School Exchange Program. It's a very nice place. I will probably some back one day to visit what I missed (I was in Seattle)!

Saluti