22-04-2002 08:22									#1
	Renegotiating peace. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There seems to be an unusual degree of confusion as to just how one can renegotiate peace. It would certainly help me (and maybe others) if all the facets of renegotiating were discussed in one thread.

I just played a game where I technically renegotiated a peace after the treaty expired. An extremely weak civ contacted me to renew; I said no, technically making us at war, but the civ immediatelly agreed to give me all of their techs and gold for a "new" peace agreement.

I have also renegotiated once while a peace treaty was still in effect. Starting this process gives you no way out, however - whatever you get via negotiations, you (seemingly) will wind up with an extended treaty. As you might imagine, I didn't squeeze much out of a weaker civ.

As the game went on, however, I realized that my peace treaties never seemed to expire; that is, I didn't renew them, no one asked me to nrenew them, but whenever I checked to see if they were still in effect, they were. This doesn't make any sense to me, and look forward to an explanation (or suggestions) regarding any or all of the above.

	22-04-2002 09:44									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Urrggh.

That's my feeling regarding the interface / process / dynamic of all diplo negotiations.

While the concepts are very cool, the actual process leaves something to be desired.

Here's some of what I understand:

- Negotiation stances are based on a mix of need and relative civ power, including that coming from war.

- The AI civs will NEVER end or renegotiate a trade if it is advantageous to them (Bastards!!).

- The AI civs have gotten a little tougher with 1.21f. I'm guessing, but I think Soren has tried to shut down, or at least dramatically diminish, Aeson's peace exploit.

- There is still no good way to track what trades and trade potential is out there... I am even *****ing about not knowing when the AI civs have workers in their capitols!! Pain in the butt.

- The mechanism for renegotiation is a pain... it feels like you are just ending the trade, or going to war, when in fact you are just trying to re-cut the deal.

A little rambling, but that's what comes to mind. All of the trading is cool, and actually seems to work for good gaemplay, but it's sort of a pain.

	22-04-2002 12:15									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sorry if I'm telling you things you already know, but it didn't went out very clearly in your post. You can renegotiate peace with every civilization, even though you never were at war with them. Just go diplo, choose Active and cancel the mutual Peace treaty. Choose "yes" on the following question, and you're there.

You can now place your demands. Techs, luxuries (hard to get), gold (easy). With 1.21f, the AI doesn't part with cities anymore (it did till 1.17f). However, if the AI feels stronger than you, it might be you are the one who has to pay, so renegotiate only if you a) are much stronger or b) are ready for war. Note also, that with 1.21f there seems to be a modified AI strength evaluation, you can't fool the AI with tons of workers anymore.

Such a deal lasts exactly 20 turns, and I have yet to see the AI renegotiate it itself. So write the date down and renegotiate it after 20 turns.

	22-04-2002 23:03									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Theseus, the vagueness with which the AI seemingly extends favorable deals in perpetuity drives me crazy as well. I wonder if what Sir Ralph says actually shows us how to renegotiate even when the deal in question is still seemingly in effect.

Actually, Sir Ralph, I have had weaker civs extend peace treaties with me. But to get back to your main thrust: are you saying that even though the screens say I have an active peace treaty (which is why you check under "active"), I can renegotiate it after twenty turns, with the option of going to war if negotiations fail? This would explain why I thought it hadn't expired - it's listed as if it hasn't. This also would be different from renegotiating before the twenty turns expire; an early renegotiation gives you no choice in the end but to extend under mutually agreeable terms. (It may be a way to force a more powerful civ to extend, however.)

	23-04-2002 00:58									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Umm, I guess the point is a deal never actually expires. When a deal is agreed to, it has 20 turns where it can only be broken by war, and after that, it enters into a state where it can be renegotiated.

	23-04-2002 02:15									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Txurce But to get back to your main thrust: are you saying that even though the screens say I have an active peace treaty (which is why you check under "active"), I can renegotiate it after twenty turns, with the option of going to war if negotiations fail?

This is exactly what I meant. Act as if you want to cancel a trade agreement. Your foreign advisor will ask you with a frightened face, if you REALLY want to renegotiate peace. Type yes and renegotiate. If it fails, you'll be at war, but the good side is, your citizens won't see you as the aggressor (addressing war weariness). If the negotiations are successful, a turn counter will appear at the Peace treaty, showing you the number of turns left. If you attack within this time, your reputation will be ruined.

	23-04-2002 05:03									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually, what I find is the biggest pain is you have to call up your "friends" to find the time left on any deal. If it has a number in parentheses (ie (2) Right of Passage) then you cannot break/renegotiate without getting a bad rep. I personally managed to break 3 MPPs and RoPs after 20 years, just in time to negotiate peace with the civ I was fighting (and the whole reason I signed the MPPs and RoPs in the first place). However, to avoid pissing off the "friendly" civs when I called them up every 5 turns to double-check the time left before I could safely break them, I felt compelled to give them 5 gp each as a present

I wish the trade advisor or diplomatic advisor had a list of every civ, your agreements, and how much time left on them at the minimum. Something like:

Iriquoi
(2) Mutual Protection Pact
Right of Passage
You give 20gp/turn

Of course, some way to deliniate which parts were tied together as a single deal would be nice too. Otherwise you might think you MPP was tied to your gold for luxury deal, or not realize that it was tied together.

	26-04-2002 12:05									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was surprised to see in my current game that other civs have been approaching me to renew our peace agreements. Assuming that they must see me as a threat, I refuse, and we technically go to war. In each case, however, the AI always gives away something to end the war via diplomatic means.

	26-04-2002 12:58									#9
	Support Apolyton

Does "calling up your friends" repeatedly really make them angry? I know it can work that way with real friends, but in the game I don't think I've noticed any difference. Sometimes I'll call them up in diplomacy 2 or 3 times a turn, just to check something. Doesn't seem to have any effect.

	26-04-2002 18:58									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Nah, calling them up doesn't piss 'em off... well, it depends on what you say to them

It definitely looks like Soren gave the AI a little more backbone in 1.21, when it comes to renegotiating treaties.

-Arrian

	03-05-2002 06:34									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Does renegotiating peace anger a civ? They seem to stay the same way with me, even sometimes get happier. Do they feel more...secure?

	03-05-2002 07:15									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I believe that if you renegotiate peace and then attack them within 20 turns that your reputation and ability to sign treaties diminishes.

	03-05-2002 21:12									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Of course. If you renegotiate it, that's like any other deal - it can't be broken for 20 turns and if you do, people start disliking you. After 20 turns have expired, you can declare war as you wish.