22-04-2002 10:03									#31
	Support Apolyton

It's an assumption. I haven't seen any Angus-Reid data yet, have you?

What do we know about the pilot so far? He is ANG, right? Most ANG pilots are retired USAF, right?

I'm not going to assume what the soldiers of the PPCLI are thinking right now about the Americans. I'll ask some of them if you want.

	22-04-2002 10:04									#32
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Perhaps I should have asked, "Are tensions growing between Canadians and Canadians?"

	22-04-2002 10:04									#33
	Full PM-box? Change here!

KH. How do you know there has been a fundamental shift in view-point?

	22-04-2002 10:05									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Perhaps I should have asked, "Are tensions growing between Canadians and Canadians?"

The answer to that is no as well. We beat the nuts off each other in debate if we can't find a hockey arena.

	22-04-2002 10:10									#35
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: I'm not going to assume what the soldiers of the PPCLI are thinking right now about the Americans. I'll ask some of them if you want

At least one of them was thinking:

"The point of training is to learn from your mistakes, and it seems that the Americans just don't learn"

-Sound bite from PPCLI soldier at Edmonton CFB

	22-04-2002 10:14									#36
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I can tell you that for as long as I can remember, the common line in the Forces is that on average, Americans are not well-trained. (At the same time, the elite units are well-respected). It's not meant to insult the Americans, but rather as a pride statement (i.e., our equipment is crap, but we're better trained then the Americans). The "friendly fire" will just feed on that sentiment.

	22-04-2002 10:16									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What do we know about the pilot so far? He is ANG, right? Most ANG pilots are retired USAF, right?

Maybe, but IIRC, Bush Jr. and Qualye were both pilots in the ANG and never did regular service.

	22-04-2002 12:41									#38
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Maybe, but IIRC, Bush Jr. and Qualye were both pilots in the ANG and never did regular service.

I bet Quayle was the one who bombed the Canadians. I can't believe that he was the freaking Vice President of the U.S.! I'm not sure if he could even tie his own shoes. The Republicans could have picked a million better people to become the V.P.!

As to the thread topic: I think more and more Americans are becoming convinced that Canada will become a part of the U.S. in the near future, probably after Quebec seceeds. BTW, how is the tensions between Quebec and the rest of Canada?

	22-04-2002 12:42									#39
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Quebec's doing just fine, King Jean is funneling money over to them from public coffers to keep them happy and voting liberal.

	22-04-2002 12:44									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by nationalist I bet Quayle was the one who bombed the Canadians. I can't believe that he was the freaking Vice President of the U.S.! I'm not sure if he could even tie his own shoes. The Republicans could have picked a million better people to become the V.P.!

Two words: Impeachment Insurance .

Could you imagine if Clinton had had like Jesse Jackson as his veep... he'd never even be close to being impeached .

	22-04-2002 12:46									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by nationalist BTW, how is the tensions between Quebec and the rest of Canada?

Don't even mention it. One of the reasons I moved to Hong Kong was so that could read a newspaper that didn't have a constitutional crisis story on the front page every day.

	22-04-2002 12:46									#42
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Asher Quebec's doing just fine, King Jean is funneling money over to them from public coffers to keep them happy and voting liberal.

Still BQ majority... 38-37 IIRC.

And Quebec hasn't been this far from separation in 25 years, nationalist. The sovereigntists have shot their charge, and we're all one happy family again.

Except for the Albertans.

	22-04-2002 12:48									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Two words: Impeachment Insurance . Could you imagine if Clinton had had like Jesse Jackson as his veep... he'd never even be close to being impeached .

LMFAO!!! If J.J. were V.P., Clinton could have canabalized Monica Lewinsky and not gotten impeached.

	22-04-2002 12:53									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The Globe reports that 85 per cent of Canadians surveyed want the US to pay compensation for the deaths.

"People are not brushing this off. We're
getting angry over what happened, but
we are looking at recognition and compensation rather than retribution," said John Wright, vice-president of polling of Ipsos-Reid that conducted thesurvey for The Globe and Mail and CTV.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet...me=breakingnews

	22-04-2002 13:20									#45
	Suffering from ads?

So, no more interest in going after Bin Ladin?

	22-04-2002 13:28									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

?

	22-04-2002 14:06									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Bomb the b*stard Bin Landen into the stone age. Don't let a few over-wrought citizens of the True North stop you.

We lost what, 4 men? We've probably lost more in our own training accidents over the last number of years, or to other incompetencies on the part of the DND or the government. Helicopters anyone?

Being a soldier is not a low-risk job. They knew it when they signed up. We know it when ever we put the blue helmets on them and sent them off to keep or make the peace somewhere. We damn well should of known it when we sent them as combatants to a fruxing war zone.

What happened is very unfortunate. A man made a mistake. Not an Army, not a country. Most Canadians do not blame all Americans and most Canadians don't blame the entire armed forces of the US. Most of us are not that stupid.

	22-04-2002 14:13									#48
	Got spare money?

I'd say the tension between U.S. and Canada is between 1550 and 1770 MPa

	22-04-2002 14:23									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

Canadians beer
Americans beer

(Of course I judge only beers exported in France ...)

	22-04-2002 14:26									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither A man made a mistake. Not an Army, not a country. Most Canadians do not blame all Americans and most Canadians don't blame the entire armed forces of the US.

So you're the expert on what happened, eh. How do you know whether one pilot caused a freak accident that got through extensive safeguards or whether it is indicative of a systematic failure in the US military's operation rules?

How do you know what most Canadians think?

How do you know what is acceptable and unacceptable to the men and women of the CF?

	22-04-2002 14:56									#51
	Just a comment. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

http://members.aol.com/amerwar/ff/ff.htm

a link from the above site

http://members.aol.com/amerwar/ff/ffk.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/comme...ens121101.shtml


Training is a good thing. You can train for years and be the best damn trainee in your group. But it means nothing when you get out in a situation where there is stress and the possibility that you will die and you as a person fail. It was a very sad thing to hear of the Canadian deaths. No less or more tragic then the American deaths eariler. But it happens. You can train until the end of the world but it will still happen.


Let me ask everyone a question. If their were large amounts of casualites coming in every day from both America and Canada, would the friendly fire incident would have raised as much attention as it did? I'm not saying their death was unimportant. I would never say that. But what I am saying is that with the kind of fighting going on now, would there been much of a stir as it is now?

quote: So — although technology may improve, and training made more realistic and demanding — friction is likely to remain a feature of war. Much as we may desire it, we should not expect perfection in war, so long as it remains a human enterprise.

	22-04-2002 14:59									#52
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So you're the expert on what happened, eh. How do you know whether one pilot caused a freak accident that got through extensive safeguards or whether it is indicative of a systematic failure in the US military's operation rules? How do you know what most Canadians think? How do you know what is acceptable and unacceptable to the men and women of the CF?

No offense Tingikai, but you talk as if you can answer yes to all those questions. It may be wise to actually wait until an offical determination has been made. Just a suggestion.

	22-04-2002 15:01									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Tingkai:

Are you that insipidly anti-American that you will beat on this like it is the fault of 330 million people? Come on! Like no Canadian has ever f*cked up and killed somebody? Like how our own fruxing govenrment has helicopter crews flying in death traps because they wanted to score points on the previous government.

I'm as in touch with the average Canadian as you bud. And the average Canadian is not quite so dim.

	22-04-2002 15:13									#54
	Support Apolyton

The National Review article makes an interesting point:
"Consider that the bomb that killed the three Americans was a 2,000-pound bomb, dropped at a high altitude by a B-52 bomber. Until recently, the employment of such a weapon in close proximity to friendly troops was unthinkable. ... What has enabled U.S. forces to call in B-52 strikes so close to friendly troops is the rapid evolution of "smart" munitions. "

The question then becomes: have operation procedures kept pace with the development of this new technology? Is the US military relying too much on the accuracy of these weapons? Has control shifted too far to individual pilots?

The answer to all of these questions may well be negative. The system might be working as well as can be expected.

Then again, there could be systematic problems.

My concern is that attitude "**** happens", friction is part of war, and so on.

That type of attitude leads to the continuation of avoidable accidents.

	22-04-2002 15:17									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber No offense Tingikai, but you talk as if you can answer yes to all those questions. It may be wise to actually wait until an offical determination has been made. Just a suggestion.

I agree, and that goes for people who say it was just an unavoidable accident.

Based on media reports, Canadians are upset about what happened. They are angry at the US military.

	22-04-2002 15:22									#56
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Tingkai: Are you that insipidly anti-American that you will beat on this like it is the fault of 330 million people? Come on! Like no Canadian has ever f*cked up and killed somebody? Like how our own fruxing govenrment has helicopter crews flying in death traps because they wanted to score points on the previous government. I'm as in touch with the average Canadian as you bud. And the average Canadian is not quite so dim.

Ya, I think you are an exception to the rule.

You're losing it again.

Spare us the crap that anyone who dares to question the US military is automatically anti-American.

Get it through your head. An American pilot killed four Canadian soldiers. We have a right to demand answers. We have a right and obligation to examine what happened. If that makes us anti-American then go ahead and label us.

When fatal accidents occur in the Forces, the military does look for ways to prevent these accidents.

I'm all in favour of getting new helicopters. We should have done that 10 years ago and we would have if it wasn't for the Liberals making political points at cost of our airmen.

	22-04-2002 19:09									#57
	Re: Tension between Canada and the U.S.? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Is tension growing between Canada and the U.S.? I don't mean between our governments or anything like that; I mean between Joe Six-Pack Molson Canadians and Joe Six-Pack Budweiser Americans.

Well, of course.
Here's Canada, the equivalent of the Brit's "red-haired stepchild", and they still have a snotass attitude.
What do you expect?

	22-04-2002 19:13									#58
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Be careful. They'll burn your capital again

	22-04-2002 19:16									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yeah. You know how they are.

	22-04-2002 20:57									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

All this needless talk about tension that does not even exist between the two NATIONS.

That sport incident involved nothing but immature, stupid Americans who lacked good sportsmanship.