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Roland
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Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:19
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Chris:
"See Roland? It's not just me that believes this and is talking about it. Typical responce by you when confronted by this."
I specifically asked for "no idiotic trolls". For once try arguments and don't hide behind that line (which is also getting boring quickly). Of course it's not just you. But * surprise * you could still be wrong.
"Either you have forgotten, or you don't know, they NEVER were Palestian lands... Sorry to disillusion you, but LEAGALLY Israel doesn't have to give them squat...."
The westbank and gaza became parts of Jordan and Egypt, and both countries (Jordan explicitly, Egypt concludently) have given up their claim in favour of the Palestinians as represented formerly by the PLO and now by the PA.
Dino:
"...but to argue that Israel lacks the right to defend itself, as the EU seems to be doing, is beyond foolish."
Solana has explicitly supported the right of Israel to defend itself. That does not mean there are no limits to that right, or that doing everything you can or even may is automatically good.
Ned:
"Both steadfastly ignore that Arafat and the PA were attacking Israel with a reign of terror that was simply unbelievable and intolerable."
That is not ignoredm it's perfectly clear. But it also clear that Israel is conducting the illegal settlement policy. And that you can't put all the blame on Arafat, because while Barak offered 95 % or so of the westbank, there were several strings attached to that. I think Arafat should have taken the deal nonetheless, but that's another issue.
Many Israelis and their ardent supporters think Israel is 100 % right. Accordingly, they see the EU as biased. But the Pals see themselves as 100 % right, and for them the US and the EU are baised in favour of Israel. With the "who's right" issue, people can go on killing each other for the next thousend years.
AS:
Any link for that newsweek claim ?
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Roland
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Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:19
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Tried newsweek, got directed to MSNBC, and found:
The French government?s ambassador to Britain recently blamed much of the world?s troubles on ?that shitty little country Israel.?
In a ravingly pro-Israel opinion piece without further source, or giving place or time other than "recently".
http://www.msnbc.com/news/738341.asp
Two really interesting pieces:
German foreign minister about antisemitic undertones in the european debate:
http://www.n-tv.de/3006033.html
And an interview from Haaretz:
http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pag...Y&itemNo=154753
quote:
Le Pen's triumph: a message to Muslims to keep Le Pen's triumph: a message to Muslims to keep quiet
Roger Cukierman, president of CRIF, the Representative Council of Jewish Organizations in France, talks about the significance for Jews of the rise of Jean-Marie Le Pen
"Le Pen's success is a message to Muslims to keep quiet, because he is known as someone who has always been opposed to Muslim immigration," Cukierman said after the first election results were disclosed. The meaning of Le Pen's success, he added, "is that the next government will have to put great emphasis on the struggle against [all forms of] violence ... including violent anti-Semitism."
....
Thus, for example, when Cukierman analyzes Europe's problematic relations with Israel, and tries to explain why they differ so strikingly from Israel-U.S. ties, he does not rely on theological references to long-standing Christian hatred of Jews. His explanation contains little of the abstract concepts which intellectuals adore. Instead, Cukierman speaks about simple interests. "Europe's inclination toward the Arab side," he explains, "derives from two simple interests. One is the current, large presence of Muslims in Europe's population. In France, for example, some 10 percent of the population is Muslim. The second is oil. America has a greater reserve of independent energy sources, and so it allows itself a wider measure of support for Israel."
"Yet at the same time," the CRIF leader adds, "there can be doubt that there is a factor of public opinion that is fashioned by the media. The media are not influenced by the Arab electorate, nor by oil tycoons. Media are based on images; and images of Palestinians - what can you do - are a lot `better' than those of Israelis. They can supply pictures of a pregnant woman being held at a checkpoint, or of held-up emergency medical teams, or of Arafat sitting by candlelight. These are pictures which Israel cannot deliver."
...
Backtracking somewhat, the CRIF leader suggests that the sheer passage of time, rather than recent discussions about the Holocaust, might be behind shifting European views of Jewish issues. He explains: "The Holocaust happened 60 years ago; and here are the Jews proving nowadays that they too act brutally; and thus the Jews are no longer in a situation wherein they can preach morality. The passage of time has apparently taken its toll; and so were it not for the campaign to restore Jewish property, Europe would stop feeling guilty and `return to normalcy.'"
Two conditions must come about, Cukierman says, before the current wave of anti-Semitism can be stopped. "If an end comes to the war in Israel," he says, "it will be easier to attain peace between Jews and Muslims in France. The second thing is that the Muslims, who are very strong, need to organize their power in a constructive political fashion. This hasn't happened up to now."
...
In the absence of a Muslim organizational structure in France, Cukierman says, "a few moderate declarations have been made by some important, non-radical imam preachers, such as the chief imams of Paris and Marseilles. But the vast majority of statements, even ones which contained denunciations of terror, had all sorts of problematic comments that ruined everything. For instance, there were declarations that appeared to repudiate violence and anti-Semitism - after making such denunciations, the speakers went on and attacked Jews harshly."
Cukierman does not hold back criticism of leftist members of France's Jewish community, including one of his predecessors at CRIF's top post, Theo Klein, who refused to take part in a large rally organized by the French Jewry two weeks ago, to protest double standards in responses to anti-Semitism, and express support of Israel. These leftists chose to stage a simultaneous rally which was limited to opposition of anti-Semitism.
"I said [at the time] that while France suffered from anti-Semitism, there had not been a single Jew killed in these incidents, whereas 125 people were killed in Israel in the month of March alone. Thus, I felt that decency compelled us to express support for Israel. The fact is that our constituency voted with its feet: About a third of French Jewry, some 140,000 people, took part in this rally. Only 1,000 people turned up for the left-wing demonstration."
Cukierman admits that the wave of anti-Semitic incidents has stirred real worries about the future of Jewish life in France. "If the war in Israel continues, I anticipate that we will have a problem [in France], unless the Muslim community turns into a constructive force," he says. At any event, he doesn't foresee a wave of immigration to Israel: "At least not for the time being," Cukierman says. He explains: "We are very well integrated in France's population, so I don't anticipate a wave of aliyah [immigration to Israel] at this stage. In any case, the Jewish leadership does not intervene in this question."
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Worth reading it in full length...
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:19
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Berlin's police reccomends Jews not to walk with Kippas on the street.
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Rogan Josh
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Just yesterday, I had lunch with an Israeli Jew. I asked him if he felt safe here in France with the recent vote for Le Pen and all the 'anti-semitic' rhetoric in the media recently.
He didn't understand what I was getting at. He has never personally witnessed any anti-semitism in France at all. He has not been discriminated against and says that people are very friendly and sympathetic. He said they show nothing but concern and understanding when talking about the ME crisis.
He also pointed out that he does not approve of the Sharon government in Israel and thinks the recent incursions do more harm to Israel than good (although he means this from a Jewish perspective - that it will not help Israel to be safe - he is not very sympatheic to the Palestinians).
One final point (not from my friend): anti-zionism is not the same as anti-semitism. To suggest that euopeans are racist (which is basically what anti-semitism is) because they disapprove of the actions of the Israeli government is outrageous and ridiculous. Are Americans who disapprove of Zimbabwe's move away from democracy recently being racist against blacks? Was the toppling of the Taliban in Afghanistan anti-semitism against muslims? Of course not!
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Roland
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Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:19
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Berlin police now has a press release on this. It was an interview conducted with someone from the LKA (state investigation office), who said in a radio interview upon being asked directly about this:
http://www.berlin.de/home/Land/Poli...4949/index.shtm
quote:
Personen, die sich im Stadtgebiet bewegen, unkontrolliert will ich mal sagen, und eben nicht prominent sind und villeicht durch ihren Glauben auch nach außen hin manifestieren, dass sie Orthodox sind, sind natürlich erkennbar. Und insofern leider nicht in allen Fällen schützbar. Ich hätte mir ein paar Verhaltensregeln, die ich kundtun könnte. Ich kann mir aber vorstellen, dass ich dadurch unsere orthodoxe Mitbürger verletzen würde in ihrem Glauben. Natürlich wäre es ein probates Mittel, es nicht nach außen zu zeigen, also weder durch Bekleidung noch durch Symbole, durch die kippa oder ähnliche Gegenstände, Davidstern natürlich. Jedoch ist das ein schwieriges Unterfangen, gerade wenn man sein Glauben nach außen manifestieren möchte. Insofern wäre das ein Mittel und jeder mag prüfen, ob er als ein solches für sich als tauglich erachtet. |
= People who move in the city, unsurveilled, so to speak, who are not prominent and may manifest their faith, that they are orthodox, can of course be recognized as such. And unfortunately we cannot protect every single one. I'd have a couple of recommendations that I'd like to tell. Yet I can imagine that thereby, I might hurt orthodox citizens in their religious feelings. Naturally it would be simple not to manifest your faith, like through clothing or symbols, the kippa, or similar things, like the star of david, of course. Yet this is a delicate issue, if you particularly want to show your faith. So it would be a possible way, yet everyone has to decide for himself whether he considers this appropriate or not.
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Dr Strangelove
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Does Le Pen's strong showing in the election demonstrate that the current French government is out of step with the feelings of the people with regards to the ME conflict?
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Roland
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Auf'm Jahrmarkt :(
May 1999
time: 06:19
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Maybe it is no longer antisemitic to see Sharon's "war" as counterproductive?
quote:
Weakness of power, power of weakness By Yoel Marcus
Summing up Operation Defensive Shield now that it's officially over is a tough proposition. Since no clear objective was ever established, it's hard to say exactly what constitutes a victory. So we destroyed X amount of infrastructure and caught X number of wanted men. So we showed them who they were stupid enough to mess with. So we taught them a lesson. Maybe so, but is this the victory we prayed for?
Fuad Ben-Eliezer says the significance of the operation is that now we
know how much power the Palestinians had amassed to maim and kill. True, we have demolished infrastructure and delivered a mighty blow to their leadership and their "engineers," but the minister of defense believes we are not done with terror yet - "Infrastructure has been smashed, but the problem of suicide bombers remains. We can bask in our achievements, but the reds lights are still flashing. Their desire for revenge has not subsided, and may have grown even stronger."
To put it another way, if the goal was to halt terror, and not just take revenge on the Palestinians, we have not achieved our goal.
Operation Defensive Shield, the largest military operation ever launched against the Palestinian Authority, has demonstrated the weakness of Israel's power and the power of the Palestinians' weakness. Within days of entering the cities of West Bank with an oversized force of tanks, helicopters and elite combat units, the whole world rose up against us with a ferocity we didn't expect. This time we got it all - threats of economic sanctions, orders to pull back immediately, a torrent of spontaneous and organized anti-Israeli demonstrations.
The public soon forgot the gruesome sights of the Seder night massacre and the other fatal attacks on Israeli citizens. All they saw was the suffering of the Palestinians. From the moment the IDF entered the refugee camps, the script was clear - Israel would be accused of a massacre (that never happened) and an international "investigation committee" would be established to prove our guilt. Because of the wreckage, the stench of death and the testimony of old people, women, and children mixing fact and fiction, but mainly because "they are weak" and "we are strong."
And over all of this hovers Sharon's colossal blunder of isolating Arafat. Instead of trapping Arafat, the state has set a trap for itself, turning Arafat into the stuff of myth, a holy martyr whom the whole world defends and feels compassion for.
Power of deterrence is a valuable asset as long as no one puts it to the test. In breaking that Ben-Gurionesque rule, we have shot ourselves in the foot. We have inflicted a blow on the offices of the Palestinian Authority and its terrorist capabilities, but we have not made so much as a dent in Palestinian motivation, except maybe to increase it.
The main lesson to be learned from this operation is that if terror returns, which is not unlikely, a war of this size is out of the question. Because the world (which is to say, America) will not let us finish it. The international community will impose sanctions with some very sharp claws, and that includes the U.S. administration, which will never forgive us if we ruin its plans to knock off Saddam Hussein.
Fortunately for Israel, the September 11 attacks on America were not linked to Israel. In time, however, with the unrest in the Arab world, Iraq's manipulations and European incitement, the blame for any further attacks on American targets may fall on us. Israel's commitment to world Jewry also obligates it to avoid strong-arm tactics that could intensify the current wave of anti-Semitism now spreading like wildfire. The Palestinians have turned their weakness into a destructive force, whereas our overuse of power has solved nothing and left the problem in our lap.
The Palestinian Authority, as the initiator of terror attacks, came by Operation Defensive Shield honestly. But even the minister of defense says that terror is a pus-filled abscess that cannot be cured by military action or by building a fence to hide behind. The only solution is political. As long as Sharon chooses force, and lacks the courage to dismantle two or three isolated settlements that hang around our necks like deadweight, in order to demonstrate to ourselves and the other side that there is an alternative to violence, we have not won, and will never win. |
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...sID=0&listSrc=Y
As far as it refers to the operation, is this really so much different from what Solana said ?
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:19
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Roland, Israel was attacked by Jordan in 1967. It took the West Bank from them in a defensive war. That territory is Israel's to do with as it pleases, and no one else's. Their "occupation" is not "illegal."
To the extent the Arabs and their Europeans allies would continue to make war on Israel until it withdraws from these territories is simply a continuation of the 6-day war and its predecessors. This is Arab aggression.
To accept Arab aggression as "law" would be to would make all settled borders in Europe and the New World "illegal." Poland would have to give back German lands it occuppied at the end of WWII. The U.S. would have to give back California to the Mexicans. The United States as a whole would have to surrender to the Native Americans. Etc., etc., etc. This is ludicrous.
Palestine has never in history been an independent state. It was born as a province in the Roman Empire in 135 on the graves of the Jewish people who were slaughtered, not merely defeated, by the Roman army. The people the Romans settled there came mainly from the Roman province of Syria. They are not "Arabs" by race. They are Arabs because of Arab conquest in the mid 600's.
In subsequent history, the Arabs lost Palestine to the Turks of Egypt. Later it was conquered by European Crusaders, and then retaken by Egypt. Later it fell to the Ottoman Turks who held it for 400 years. The Arabs did not regain control of the West Bank until Trans Jordan "took it" as the British army left in 1948.
Now the Jews have returned to their native land. They want to live in peace with the Arabs. But the Arabs have never agreed to this. They have been the aggressors since 1936. Their goal is kill as many Jews as they can and extinquish Israel. This would be a repeat of the events of 131-135.
Incredibly, Europe has now sided with aggression. The Arabs continue to make war on Israel and the Europeans have joined their camp.
In order for there to be peace in the region, the Arabs have to be pressured to stop their aggression. Europe is on the wrong side in this conflict.
Ned
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23-04-2002 06:55
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