22-04-2002 16:07									#1
	The EU's position on the ME conflict is anti-Israel/antisemitic ? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

After Peres has joined those charges:

quote: Peres equates European criticism of Israel to Peres equates European criticism of Israel to anti-Semitism (Reuters) WASHINGTON - Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has equated European criticism of Israel's offensive on Jenin with anti-Semitism, saying he expected to feel lonely at this week's meeting of European and Middle Eastern foreign ministers in Spain. "I regret the European reaction. ... Where in Europe, at the beginning, anti-Semitism was against the individual Jewish person, today I am afraid there is anti-Semitism against the Jewish state," he told American supporters of Israel. "Maybe there are many European politicians who represent the future of Europe. We Jewish people cannot forget the past of Europe, and we would expect the Europeans to remember what we didn't forget and to judge us in a real and balanced way, as they should," he added.

So there is this perception of european policy bias to european antisemitic policy in Israel and the US at least. But on what is it based ? I'm genuinely interested in the sources of this perception, so it would be nice if people could keep their idiotic trolls outta here.

	22-04-2002 16:08									#2
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A couple of official EU statements in the original text:

quote: Statement by the EU Presidency concerning the terrorist attacks in Jerusalem and Haifa Dec 2nd 2001 1. The Presidency of the European Union expresses its greatest revulsion and its firm condemnation of the terrorist attacks perpetrated in Jerusalem and in Haifa. It offers its most sincere condolences to the families of the victims and to the Israeli government. 2. The Presidency refers to the declaration of 13 August, in which the European Union totally rejects terrorist acts, particularly those acts which are targeted at innocent civilians. 3. The Presidency calls upon the Palestinian Authority to do everything in its power to arrest and bring to justice the perpetrators of these awful acts and to prevent that such acts be repeated. Its encourages the parties to work without delay and resolutely towards the resumption of an effective security co-operation with a view to breaking the cycle of violence. 4. The Presidency affirms the firm intention of the International Community not to allow that extremism and terrorism destroy the current diplomatic efforts aiming to relaunch the political process in the Middle East.

quote: Statement by the EU Presidency on the deteriorating situation in the Middle East (Dec 4th 2001) 1. The Presidency is deeply concerned about the worsening crisis in the Middle East and the risks of further escalation. 2. The Presidency is convinced that the Palestinian issue cannot be resolved in any satisfactory or permanent way through violence. Terrorism must be condemned unreservedly. The Palestinian Authority must convincingly and relentlessly pursue its efforts to stamp out terrorism. 3. The Presidency is of the opinion that destabilising the Palestinian Authority would not help stop the cycle of violence. On the contrary, the Palestinian Authority should be helped to assume all of its responsibilities under the agreements it has signed. 4. Only by resuming the political dialogue will it be possible to emerge from the current crisis. It is absolutely vital that the parties unconditionally and urgently resume serious, efficient talks on security issues with a view to quickly initiating a political process as well as negotiations on inter alia the timetable and means for creating a Palestinian state.

quote: JAVIER SOLANA, EU HIGH REPRESENTATIVE FOR THE CFSP EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT 9 APRIL 2002 1. Today we are faced with a situation in the Middle East that is in equal parts dramatic, tragic and dangerous. We must confront the stark reality: That we have now reached the threshold of the unacceptable; That these events will lead nowhere but further misery and despair; And that consequently we must act on every front, not just to solve the immediate crisis, but also to remove the causes of crisis. 2. So that everyone understands me: let no one doubt that I condemn utterly and without reserve all terrorist acts, none more so than the recent spate of suicide bombings in Israel. I have personally; both in political and private life, been sufficiently familiar with terrorism and its bloody aftermath to be absolutely clear on this point. 3. But the military response that we are witnessing in the occupied territories is intolerable and must be halted immediately. We are all aware of the immense suffering of the civilian population. To deny whole populations access to water and electricity is not justifiable by security considerations. There are violations of humanitarian and military law that cannot go uncommented. 4. The Government of Israel has the right - indeed has the duty - to protect its citizens. But what we are witnessing will not serve that end. For this is not an anti-terrorist operation - it is perilously close to war. 5. We have two very clear Security Council Resolutions. They do not lend themselves to a variety of interpretations. They are crystal clear and must be applied now. The Israeli military operation must be halted, not in stages, not town by town. It must stop and stop immediately.

quote: Declaration by the Presidency of the European Union on Jenin (Madrid, 19 April 2002) Deeply shocked by the extremely alarming reports on the situation in the refugee camp in Jenin, which refer to a very high number of deaths and wounded people and massive destruction as a consequence of the operations launched by the Israel Defence Force, the Presidency of the European Union demands that the work of humanitarian organizations and agencies and of the rescue teams be allowed to be carried out without obstacles nor hindrances. The Presidency of the European Union deems essential the establishment of the facts and requests an impartial international investigation on the events in the refugee camp of Jenin.

	22-04-2002 16:53									#3
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More pro-arab than anti-Israel if you ask me.

that is , the main establishment acts to straighten the relationship with arab countries.


I hope you don't think that European governments actually care about what's going on here, because realpolitik is the only law.

	22-04-2002 16:59									#4
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It's just a handy way to deflect criticism of Israeli policies.

	22-04-2002 17:05									#5
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someone criticises Israel, Israelis cry: anti-semitism!

bullshit

	22-04-2002 17:10									#6
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I said it before and I'll say it again: It's hard to be objective when you fund one side. This eliminates pretty much the entire world.

	22-04-2002 17:50									#7
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Dalgetti:

"More pro-arab than anti-Israel if you ask me.
that is , the main establishment acts to straighten the relationship with arab countries."

On what do you base that ?

	22-04-2002 18:19									#8
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Anti-semitism my ass.

Then in WW2 the Allies were Anti-germanitic. ahahahahah

	22-04-2002 18:38									#9
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he said "no trolls"

	22-04-2002 18:44									#11
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we'll have to stay out of this

	22-04-2002 18:47									#12
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Yes, please.

	22-04-2002 18:54									#13
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Ok

To the point then:
My opinion is that there is a clear US interest in supporting Israel in the region no matter what. The suicide attacks make this a lot easier.

The public opinion in the US is formulated around their national interests. (as elsewhere).

Israel's suffering get extreme coverage there. Palestinian suffering and occupation gets close to zero.

So the americans have problems understanding why Europe supports Palestinians. US think tanks have come up with an "easy" explanation: anti-semitism.
There, think anti-semitism and don't you go torture your pretty head

	22-04-2002 18:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Roland A couple of official EU statements in the original text:

Some of which look like they are actively trying to deny the reality in front of thier faces.

	22-04-2002 19:00									#15
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such as?

	22-04-2002 19:06									#16
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quote: 4. The Government of Israel has the right - indeed has the duty - to protect its citizens. But what we are witnessing will not serve that end. For this is not an anti-terrorist operation - it is perilously close to war.

This quote for starters. The various groups that the PA has created or allowed to fester certainly see themselves to be at war with Israel and to deny that a state of war exists with them simply because they don't happen to conform to the traditional definitions of a soldier is dangerous in the extreme.

	22-04-2002 19:06									#17
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*Echo echo echo *
Such as?

	22-04-2002 19:08									#18
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Zorba, I just told you.

	22-04-2002 19:11									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: 4. The Government of Israel has the right - indeed has the duty - to protect its citizens. But what we are witnessing will not serve that end. For this is not an anti-terrorist operation - it is perilously close to war. This quote for starters. The various groups that the PA has created or allowed to fester certainly see themselves to be at war with Israel and to deny that a state of war exists with them simply because they don't happen to conform to the traditional definitions of a soldier is dangerous in the extreme.

PA and terrorism links have not been proven.
By destroying the only representation the palestinians have you destabilize the region further and plunge the Pals deeper into slavery.

(Since they REMAIN occupied or have you forgotten?)

	22-04-2002 19:21									#20
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quote: This quote for starters.

It simply says that war (or if you take a broader definition of war like in "war on drugs", make that "all out military-style war") will not serve the security of Israeli citizens. That's a debatable view, but hardly "trying to deny reality".

What else (arg: "starters")?

	22-04-2002 19:21									#21
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 PA and terrorism links have not been proven.

Do you truely think that a bomb belt factory of the size that had been destroyed in Jenin would have been able to have been set up much less be in existance for as long as it was without to support, passive or otherwise, of the PA?

quote: By destroying the only representation the palestinians have you destabilize the region further and plunge the Pals deeper into slavery.

I quite agree. They should first do a quick strike against the PA of the type that the US did against Libya combined with a unilateral pullout from the territories. If Arafat fails to get the message then, ... well I don't think that Arafat would want to contemplate what would happen to him specifically in that eventuality.

	22-04-2002 19:27									#22
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"Do you truely think that a bomb belt factory of the size that had been destroyed in Jenin..."

While the absence of links is highly implausible, I'm curious as to how you could have verified this Israeli claim ?

	22-04-2002 19:36									#23
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quote: It simply says that war ... will not serve the security of Israeli citizens. That's a debatable view, but hardly "trying to deny reality".

Roland, a state of war already exists in Israel and it had already been in existance for quite sometime by the time Solana made his statement.

quote: What else (arg: "starters")?

Save for the statement regarding the battle at Jenin, they all seem to be predicated of the hope that a state of war that was already in existance at the time that they made thier statement could be avoided.

For the sake of fairness, I will have to say that I happen to agree with the 19 April 2002 statement. The battle at Jenin does need to be investigated by an impartial tribunal, if only to put the rumors of a massacre to rest one way or the other.

Edit: I don't see why Arafat deserves any better treatment than what the British gave Michael Collins.

	22-04-2002 19:37									#24
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Just a few thoughts.

First, the polls I have seen show the US Jewish community split nearly equally over whether they do or do not support the Israeli incursion into the West Bank. I will try to dig up the link if I have time.

Second, the language of the EU declarations could be seen by some as putting much more of the onus on the Israelis than the Plaestinians. Consider

quote: The Palestinian Authority must convincingly and relentlessly pursue its efforts to stamp out terrorism.

versus

quote: But the military response that we are witnessing in the occupied territories is intolerable and must be halted immediately.

The fact that the French foreign minister is quoted as saying that "most of the problems in the world are caused by that shitty little country" meaning Israel, does not help.

Third, there are numerous other actions the EU could take on the Arab side to help the situation. For example, diverting or suspending funding for PAL educational efforts which are used to incite hatred toward Israel; or encouraging arab countries to repudiate the 1973 Khartoum Resolution which calls for the destruction of Israel.

I don't think any of these necessarily rise to the level of anti-semitism. That may have been driven by domestic political considerations, and I think Peres knows better. But you can at least understand where the Israelis are coming from on this.

EDIT: The most convincing thing the EU, US, or anybody else could do is come up with a specific, viable alternatave to the current disaster.

Paiktis:

quote: PA and terrorism links have not been proven.

Just what would you consider as proof? I think it si safe to say that any reasonable person would have strong suspicions which would be very dificult to allay. The kindest thing I could say is that if the PALs want a settlement they at least have to bring to the table the ability and willingness to stop terroracts, which I think we all can agree are launched from their territory.

	22-04-2002 19:43									#25
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When the Palestinians have their own state are not under Israeli occupation then you can hold them accountable much easier. As long as they are not a free people and are denied their right to representation with whom are yougoing to doyour negotiations with?

And again PA links with terrorism have not been proven. (unless you deem rumours or Israeli announcements which end with "I am sorry we didn't kill more Terrosists/Palestinians" (Israeli Justice Minister) facts...)

	22-04-2002 19:49									#26
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Israel's continuing thirst for land belonging to others is the core of the middle-east "problem". Israel's 1967 borders already cover 78% of Palestine. For Israel to argue that they need to negotiate over the remaining 22% is without merit. It is Israel that must learn terrorism and violence do not pay. Israel must give up all the land it stole during the 1967 war of aggression.

Peres doesn't need to teach anyone about the holocaust. The Israeli government needs to remind itself of the ethnic cleansing of the 1940s and wonder why it has ethnic cleansing proponents in its own government.

	22-04-2002 20:11									#27
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"Roland, a state of war already exists in Israel and it had already been in existance for quite sometime by the time Solana made his statement."

"...they all seem to be predicated of the hope that a state of war that was already in existance...."

So the only problem is the definition of "war" ?
Define "war". The Red Army Faction was convinced it was in a state of "war" with the german state. Not every violent conflict is a war.

It's quite pointless. Would you feel better if it said from "low intensity warfare" to "all out war" ? Why is that important?

	22-04-2002 20:25									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Roland The Red Army Faction was convinced it was in a state of "war" with the german state. Not every violent conflict is a war.

I would say that the current conflict is most comparable to the state of war that existed between the British government and the IRA for much of its history.

quote: Why is that important?

Because as it stands now the EU appears perfectly content to let moral outrage substitute itself for an effective response.

	22-04-2002 20:25									#29
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AS:

"....the language of the EU declarations could be seen by some as putting much more of the onus on the Israelis than the Plaestinians."

True. Although the different phrasing may just be because the PA has no 100 % control over terrorism, hence "efforts" (and there were some at the time, even i just for show), while Israel can simply order a withdrawal, hence "immediately".

"The fact that the French foreign minister is quoted as saying that "most of the problems in the world are caused by that shitty little country" meaning Israel, does not help."

Vedrine ? He is "quoted" by whom ?

"For example, diverting or suspending funding for PAL educational efforts which are used to incite hatred toward Israel;"

Well the abuse of funds for those propaganda infested books was investigated. Not sure how it all turned out, but the worst charge you can gather from that is bureaucratic inertia.

"encouraging arab countries to repudiate the 1973 Khartoum Resolution which calls for the destruction of Israel."

Good. Or make economic ties dependent on an end to the most insane propaganda. On this one though, I have to wonder - one of the most generous funders of the palestinians is Saudi Arabia. The US says pretty much... nothing about it. Does exactly nothing. Just that it is not construed into an antijewish policy bias.

"But you can at least understand where the Israelis are coming from on this."

I can't really understand it, apart from a sort of siege syndrome.

	22-04-2002 20:30									#30
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DinoDoc:

"I would say that the current conflict is most comparable to the state of war that existed between the British government and the IRA for much of its history."

The provisional IRA since ~1970 ? That's not a war in my book. The guerilla war that lead to irish independence in 1922, ok.

"Because as it stands now the EU appears perfectly content to let moral outrage substitute itself for an effective response."

You are interpreting your own bias into the statements. Can you turn that into a rational argument ? How is that charge related to the definition of war ?