23-04-2002 03:55									#1
	Why So Slow? What's the Bottleneck? Inflate your Upload Space

Now that I have the units the way I want them, a good earthmap, corruption and science under control, lethal bombardment, there is one major issue left...

Slow!! Slow, slowwwwww, slow... Even with a mere six civs, by the time I have 30 + cities the turns craaaawl....

None of my other games are so slow. I can run graphics intensive games like Half-Life Dod 1.2 mod and Unreal, I can run massive RPGs like BG and Wizardry 8, I can run titanic number-crunching fests like TOAW Elite edition custom barbarossa scenario, with its thousands of units and calculations....

And civ II? I can reach the max limit of allowable cities, with hundreds and hundreds of units, and the load times are only a few seconds between turns.


So what can I do to make Civ III run more quickly (I've turned off animations etc already)?

Is it a question of RAM? I have 128.

Maybe CPU? I only have PII 400 mHz (always the last thing to be upgraded)

Help!

	23-04-2002 04:01									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Depends on which part is slow.

If it's the AI pathfinding, in the previous chat, Soren said lots of RAM would help.

If it's between turns, turn off Auto-save, as the compression is the killer. If it's this, a more powerful CPU would also probably help.

	23-04-2002 04:02									#3
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I too have noticed that the late game runs way to slow with more than 4 AI civilizations - and my computer is an 866MHz, 526K ram.

I only play with 4 AI civs now...and the late game does slow down, but nothing like it was doing with 6+ AI civs in play.

	23-04-2002 04:05									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Isn't Firaxis wonderful?

We complain for months about the game being too slow. So what does Firaxis do for us?? THEY MAKE IT SLOWER!!!

	23-04-2002 04:08									#5
	Put an end to popups!

i have a gig of ram (well, 1024 MB to be exact) and it still takes a solid 3-5 minutes on marla's late game... but then again god forbid i enjoy large games...

	23-04-2002 04:10									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

well, i don't really have a problem with slowdown, but then i don't play anymore because after i got my nice new video card it started to lock up constantly.

sometimes i really miss that voodoo 3.

	23-04-2002 04:15									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I never have problems, usually playing with about 7 civs on a medium map... of course, I have a new computer, but I don't remember my system attributes since I'm not posting from home. Anyway, try the other suggestions here... they might get you somewhere.

	23-04-2002 04:35									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Isn't Firaxis wonderful? We complain for months about the game being too slow. So what does Firaxis do for us?? THEY MAKE IT SLOWER!!!

Do you know that you are repeating yourself?
(same message on several threads)


Anyway many people LIKE compressed saves.
And game is NOT slower if you trun off auto-save.

	23-04-2002 04:47									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Poor design or poor coding. One or the other or both. Unacceptable. If I were running Firaxis and they brought me something like this to release I would see that they learn to respect people of moderate means by long stints in the unemployment line.

	23-04-2002 04:55									#10
	Got spare money?

The only time I experience a slow down is when my system resources are being used up. Everthing you run in the background takes up resources. Quit all the programs you feel comfortable with and take as much off your desktop as possible. (Everything on your desktop uses system resources)


Also defrag often and if you can afford it get more ram.

	23-04-2002 05:01									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Poor design or poor coding. One or the other or both. Unacceptable. If I were running Firaxis and they brought me something like this to release I would see that they learn to respect people of moderate means by long stints in the unemployment line.

jt you obviously know nothing of design, coding or computers. The reason the game runs slow is because of the computers, not the game. If people would properly maintain and work their computers they would find that the game runs just fine. (Or they could pay my standard $135 / hr fee and I'll do it for them. )

	23-04-2002 05:16									#12
	Suffering from ads?

ACooper, I've been a software engineer for twenty years and I can tell you that that Civ3 is slow because of inefficient coding. And if Firaxis were to devote time to tuning the code, those annoying "please wait..." intervals would be much shorter.

	23-04-2002 05:26									#13
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Well, this is interesting. I as a system engineer am saying it's the system, you as a software engineer are saying it's the software.
This doesn't happen often.

Ok. Where and how is it "inefficient coded"? What evidence do you have?

	23-04-2002 06:42									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

@ AnnC and Coop. That is too funny. No sir, it's my fault... Not at all ma'am, the offence is all mine... That's almost as funny as the broken coffee cup holder...

Seeker. I assume you are using Marla's or some other huge world map? OK. They are known to be pigs for performance. Firaxis has admitted numerous times that people with 'older' computers will have problems with the big maps, especially in the late game. According to someone who actually coded the game (in a good position to know) it is the path-finding routines. PII 400 with 128M is not that far above the minimum spec.

Now the good news. Soren has repeatedly mentioned that RAM is the single most important aspect of performance (this is also true for many other programs). Good thing RAM is very cheap, and for most computers, the easiest thing to add. Go to 512M if your computer can handle it. You should notice a big difference.

Coop also has good points about system maintenance (defrag) and back ground programs. It's funny when someone says 'this computer doesn't work' and they have 30 TSRs loading on start up... Actually, it's usually not funny, but that's another topic.

	23-04-2002 06:50									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Now the good news. Soren has repeatedly mentioned that RAM is the single most important aspect of performance (this is also true for many other programs). Good thing RAM is very cheap, and for most computers, the easiest thing to add. Go to 512M if your computer can handle it. You should notice a big difference.

I agree that it is probably a ram issue. to illustrate this, if you are using windows xp, before you end a turn, open the taskmanager. when you end the turn, look at the taskmanager. the game will just suck up all the available memory. I have 512 mg ram, the game will take up all the free, even have to wait before opening a internet explorer (though I can use if already open)

also you should use cacheman, or a similar program to help out. works wonders.

	23-04-2002 07:04									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The point isn't that adding RAM will improve performance. The point is that the game's performance using the minimum system requirements is not acceptable.

P...l..e..a..s..e.....w...a...i...t.....................

Secondly, if users of a GAME, which is supposed to be FUN, have to tweak their system and BUY additional hardware hasn't someone FAILED?

Yes, they did. Consumers have a right to expect more than we had to put up with in the days of Dos to play a game.

Thirdly, there isn't any measurable advantage to these delays. The AI still is predictable and utterly unimaginitive. Just as easily beatable, but now, in addition to having to wait, or buy hardware, or both, we also get the endless tedium of killing unit after unit after unit after unit.

Last edited by Capt Dizle on 23-04-2002 at 07:14

	23-04-2002 07:09									#17
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick The point isn't that adding RAM will improve performance. The point is that the game's performance using the minimum system requirements is not acceptable. P...l..e..a..s..e.....w...a...i...t.....................

hahaha!!!
nice one jt!

what piece of software performs flawlessly on "miinimum requirements"? And I suppose that you think XP runs perfectly on 64 mg ram too!!! roflmao!!!!!

	23-04-2002 07:16									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Civ2 and SMAC ran very well on machines equiped with the minimum requirements for those games. Thank you very much.

	23-04-2002 07:20									#19
	Suffering from ads?

civ2 could be run on a diskwasher running linux and wine

	23-04-2002 07:33									#20
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Secondly, if users of a GAME, which is supposed to be FUN, have to tweak their system and BUY additional hardware hasn't someone FAILED?

A troll is a troll is a troll v4.22.1

Chimmini Christos, now you're getting out-right silly Jimmy. I make a darn good living off the games that drive people into my place of employment to buy $700 video cards (Canadian). You want to know the best part? They're always back in another 12 to 24 months for the next $500 to $700 video card. all the way to the bank.

Ohhh. Sorry. I guess Quake and every other popular shooter ever published were done by a bunch of failures.

Oh well...

	23-04-2002 07:35									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I run on an AMD K6-2 500 Mhz with 96 megs of RAM. I have NEVER, even on huge maps, had to wait more than 45 seconds between turns. I remember playing Civilization on an Amiga with MAYBE 1 meg of RAM, that was MUCH slower than this is.

	23-04-2002 07:38									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

System maintenance and running minimal background programs is essential. Explorer and systray. Of course, I don't use sound(after 10 minutes or so it gets irritating). I use no animations, why should I? Thet don't add much to the game.

	23-04-2002 07:39									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Oh, I did notice that it runs a little slower with 1.21f than it did with 1.17f. Even in Ancient Times.

	23-04-2002 07:42									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I am not the one being silly. Civ is not the type of game that has anything going on that should require people to add hardware.

People who buy shooters and such know going in that they may very well have performance problems.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

	23-04-2002 07:48									#25
	Remove this text

Jimmy. 128M is below minimum for most good systems today running most current titles.

[Edit] For enjoyable performance that is. [/Edit]

	23-04-2002 07:49									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It is very true that the "minimum requirements" were stated much too low. That is a common problem in the software industry. It is wrong (and maybe deceptive).

My point is that if you maintain your system it will run better over all whether your playing Civ3, MS Word or Photoshop. I (fortunately) have a steady stream of business from the "my computer doesn't run right" crowd when all they really need is a little maintenance and maybe more RAM. Also people don't realize that everything on you desktop uses some system resources, so keeping it clean also helps with free space in RAM.

I do notice a big difference in game speed overall (not just between turns) between my laptop (PIII 600 w/ 256 ram) and my desktop (P4 1.8 w/ 512 RAM). I have also noticed when my laptop starts to be annoying a few simple maintenance procedures and it helps alot with whatever I use it for.

There probably is some coding issues. (Maybe alot) We know that the pathfinding routines have alot to do with it. What's the solution? Could the programers cut a few corners and use a simpler (less effective) routine? I would guess that it continues to be optimizedby the programers, but what happens when it's optimized to the point where it is pointless to work on it anymore?

Are there other areas of the code that are not optimized? I see people posting such claims, but where is the evidence? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand. Soren has admitted to where the problem is. What else do you think it could be?

	23-04-2002 07:54									#27
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What was wrong with the pathfinding in Civ 2? Worked for me why change it just because systems are faster?

	23-04-2002 07:55									#28
	Remove this text

Thank you Cooper for a very good post.

btw, I think part of the problem is it in the culture routines, but I admit I can't prove it...I do remember a Firaxis comment alluding to it as a contributing cause, but I can't find it....I think they "decided" to blame it all on the AI pathfinding because culture has recieved a fair amount of criticism already...

Did I say thanks for the objective post Coop..

	23-04-2002 08:06									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Thank you Cooper for a very good post. btw, I think part of the problem is it in the culture routines, but I admit I can't prove it...I do remember a Firaxis comment alluding to it as a contributing cause, but I can't find it....I think they "decided" to blame it all on the AI pathfinding because culture has recieved a fair amount of criticism already... Did I say thanks for the objective post Coop..

Thanks, I think.

I do remember your culture routine argument from earlier and I think on lower end machines it probably is a contributing factor. Everything the program does has some effect. I can see where if you don't like culture it might seem a waste of time and processing power. Every computer program I have bought (or whatever ) has part of it I don't like or use. I like the culture part of the game, but maybe in some future patch it could be turn on or off by a rule setting. (Though I doubt they would do this)

Just remember, maintain your computer and get some more ram. (Or you could hire a guy like me and I could get a new van.)

	23-04-2002 09:18									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Wittlich I too have noticed that the late game runs way to slow with more than 4 AI civilizations - and my computer is an 866MHz, 526K ram. I only play with 4 AI civs now...and the late game does slow down, but nothing like it was doing with 6+ AI civs in play.

526KB of RAM, Civ III runs on that . Civ 2 ran like **** on my 486 with 1mb of RAM