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Soren Johnson Firaxis
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Hunt Valley, MD
May 2001
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by kailhun
I put them all on 100 each. As I understand it that means 100 gold is worth 100 gold. As it should be.
Robert |
This is not exactly true, so I should clarify.
At all levels (including Deity), 100 gold (or a tech worth 100 gold) = 100 gold. When the AI's trade with each other, they always ask for full value for their techs, maps, comms, etc. However, the AI trading rate determines how much the AI will bend if the other AI does not have enough money (or techs/maps/coms) to meet its demands.
For example, let's say Civ A offers Map Making to Civ B. Let's say Civ A determines that Map Making is worth 100 gold. If Civ B has 100 gold, Civ A will only make the trade if Civ B gives up 100 gold. However, if Civ B does not have 100 gold (and doesn't have any maps, techs, comms valuable to Civ A), then Civ A will trade Map Making for less gold according to the trading rate. At Chieftain, it would need at least 91 gold (91 * 110% = 100) in return. At Deity, it would need at least 63 gold (63 * 160% = 100) from Civ B. It is a common practice for humans to make trades that aren't entirely "fair" because they recognize that getting half-value for a tech is better than getting nothing. This system merely sets parameters for allowing the AI to make a similar decision.
I hope this clarifies things.
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Soren Johnson Firaxis
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Hunt Valley, MD
May 2001
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by lockstep
Soren - HOW EXACTLY does Civ A determine this? |
There is an AI function which estimates how much each tech is worth to each player. So Civ A calculates how much the tech is worth to Civ B. (The exact same function is used on the Diplomacy Window when you ask a civ how much they would need to trade you a tech...)
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IthacaMike
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Upstate New York
Feb 2002
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by =DrJambo=
Using these i still found them to tech trade too fast and the Eras progress too quickly on Large map, Monarch level with 12 civs.
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The larger the map size the faster tech is aquired as a whole using the default tech rate values.
The first reason is that there are more civs doing research. At the minimum research rate where it takes 40 turns to aquire a tech, 16 civs could crank out a new tech every 2.5 turns if there were no restrictions on what they could research and each civ was researching a different tech. As it is with 5 civs and tech swapping it is possible to get out of the Ancient period in 80 turns. On the larger maps with more civs this is more likely.
The other factor is that (IMO) the tech rates are too LOW on the larger maps. If every tile produced 1 beaker of research then the rate at which techs will be discovered would be proportional to number of tiles divided by the tech rate. The more tiles per tech rate the faster research gets done.
1.21f______tiles__tech____tiles____computed
values_____w * h__rate__per tRate__techrate
-------- ------ ---- --------- --------
Tiny_______3,600___160____22.5_________85
Small______6,400___200_____32_________155
Standard__10,000___240____41.7_______*240*
Large_____16,900___320____52.8________405
Huge______25,600___400_____64_________615
The computed tech rate is number of tiles divided by 41.7 and rounded off. This scales the research rate on all map sizes to be the same as the current rate on the standard size map. It is my best guess at what the tech rate "should" be.
Both the factors make research happen faster on the larger maps.
Mike
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LaRusso
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appendix of Europe
May 2001
time: 06:19
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yes, also how come there are occassions when they simply refuse to sell me a strategic resource like iron or oil, although we are in an alliance fighting a common enemy. also, they rarely, if ever, approach me for the resource they need badly (again, rubber, oil, you name it) even when it is their only chance to survive a modern era war.
IMHO, tech trading can still be toned down a bit. i mean, it is kinda realistic to have civs at different levels of tech development.
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bignickel
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Jan 2002
time: 23:19
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I just started playing this game a few nights ago. I always did great at Civ2, but I'm getting my ass kicked in this game, and this on the Monarch level!
I'm finally getting a good game going last night as the Persians, when I realize:
1. the other nations have tons of effective military units.
2. they are ALL ahead of me in tech.
3. I've only been able to build one library: I'm so busy just trying to build the necessaries so that I don't get buried if Abe Lincoln decides to attack me again (ie. build barracks, temple, and now immortals).
4. Abe is at war with the Babylonians, and their battles are taking place in my land. Neither has any respect for me, evidently.
5. Somehow, while putting out lots of military units, they also found the time to build a Big Wonder or two. Abe got "Great Library" before I was halfway into production on it.
6. I put my workers into Automatic mode, and they clear jungle and irrigate. I just noticed that Abe's settlers are building tons of mines - what, my worker's AI is nowhere as smart as Lincoln's?
7. Even though I'm way behind on tech, I'm trying to keep the science setting as high as I can, but when it comes to money, I'm barely breaking even. My expenses are 55 a turn: how come everyone else gets to field huge armies, AND be ahead of me tech.
Seems to me, since I wasn't fielding a huge army, I'M the one who should be ahead on tech. But from the get-go, no one has wanted to trade tech on an even level with me. They sure have been quick to offer "our world map for your mathematics" trades though, and be "annoyed" with me while doing it.
What gives?
bignickel
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:19
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Welcome to the disadvantages of playing on a level higher than Regent (where things are pretty much even between you and the AI).
On Monarch, the AI not only has production, research and happiness advantages (10%), it also has trading advantages. Oh, yeah, and it gets some free units. The AI knows it has a research advantage over you, so it will charge you more for tech, plus there is an inflated AI to AI tech trading rate on Monarch (130 I think... which means they will take a deal even if it's 30% less than full price, but only between AI's). The AI also knows that you're at a disadvantage when it comes to keeping your people happy, so it will charge more for luxuries. If you're bigger than the AI (more citizens... bigger cities), the AI will charge more because you will get more benifit out of the luxury than they will. If you already have access to a bunch of luxuries, the AI will charge more because with a marketplace, the 5th luxury is worth a lot more than the 1st (the 5th lux with a market gives 3 happy faces). Get the picture?
They will be annoyed until you make some trades. Buying low-end tech helps, but what really helps is connecting up those roads and making some luxury trades. Early on, you can sometimes get reasonably good deals... and this is often a good way to catch up in tech (you give them a lux for 20 turns and get a couple of techs in return).
The AI will not respect your borders if there is land to settle or a war they are fighting. Let them fight it out - telling them to leave will just piss them off and you will end up getting attacked.
Honesty, swallow your pride an play a few games at Warlord, then Regent, and then come back to Monarch. Think of it as a tutorial. Trust me, I'm a Civ II veteran as well, and Civ III rocked me the first time I stepped up to Regent (this is why I don't mention Chieftain... too easy, you don't learn).
Also, I strongly suggest reading some of the strategy threads here at 'poly, like Vel's Strategy Threads (there are three). You will learn about the wonders of REX, early warfare, low science/tech purchasing, pre-building wonders, great leader generation and much, much more. You will find that there are a couple of viable tech beelines (for the builder, I suggest the literature beeline, whilst buying masonry and starting on the Pyramids. Switch to the GL once you have literature. If you started the Pyramids early enough, you'll get the GL).
DO NOT AUTOMATE YOUR WORKERS. THEY ARE STUPID! Automation late in the game for pollution control is one thing, but early on terrain improvements are far too important to leave to the AI. As far as I know, automation will result in the same terrain improvements the AI civs would make. Understand that, except for a small number of bonus tiles, irrigation is worthless under despotism. Also understand that mining hills is a waste until you're out of despotism (too much time, not much payoff).
-Arrian
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Saurus
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Finland
Oct 2001
time: 07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by dawidge
At the higher difficulty levels, espionage become worth the price. If the AI will sell a tech to me for $1000, or I can safely steal it for $1000, I'd rather steal it. That way the AI doesn't get the $1000.
Of course, if the AI won't sell it at all, then it is really worth the $1000. ,-)}
And if he wises up and declares war on me, that just fine. Let him take the happiness hit. My citizens are behind me and I don't have to change away from Democracy for a long, long time. |
Yeah, but stealing is newer safe, I think. Thats the problem.
You can pay 1000 for the tech while trying to steal it and still not getting the tech and as a bonus the A.I will become mad at you.
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bignickel
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Jan 2002
time: 23:19
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Well, I stuck with the game, and last night I kicked the American's ass. I continued building immortals, and let the Americans and Babylonians exhaust themselves, and then I avenged myself on the Americans for their cowards sneak attack so early in the game. Whomped 'em good too. Their horse units were no match for waves of veteran immortals. And now I have the Great Library!
The first victories were very easy, in towns of pop 5. Strangely enough, when I reached their last 2 cities, the battles became very hard. Maybe they had city walls. The thing is: those catapults are useless! I had 8 of em outside, firing again and again. "Siege failed" or similar message just every time. If the catapults are supposed to destroy walls, these things did a lousy job at it.
Of course, as I was taking the last American city, the Babylonians attacked my rear cities. That's ok, I can go to the a previous autosave, and get an mutual agreement with the Zulus.
Odd thing: Lincoln never tried contacting me to end the fight. After so many games of Alpha Centauri, I was waiting for him to make a peace gesture, but he never did. One thing I've noticed: your attack force gets smaller and smaller as you're forced to garrison cities to prevent them from reverting. I assume though that alot of people here are very familiar with this > nature of the beast.
bignickel
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by dawidge
At the higher difficulty levels, espionage become worth the price. |
I too have come to realise that Espionage is worth it, on the higher levels. Stealing a tech costs "safely" costs around 2000-3000 Gold, which is how much most "friendly" civs would be willing to sell it to you for. Not putting that money in the AI's pocket is a definite advantage.
The problem with getting caught isn't so bad. I try to steal from the civs whose attitude is Cautious or better. They won't declare war on you immediately if get caught, and they appear to "forget" pretty quickly. Maybe this is just me, but I rarely get caught stealing techs "safely".
I think stealing techs is a very balanced mechanism: you can grab a few important techs here and there, but just building up a big bank account and stealing everything in sight (a la Civ2 and SMAC) is impossible.
Dominae
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dawidge
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Chicago
Apr 2002
time: 23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Saurus
Yeah, but stealing is newer safe, I think. Thats the problem.
You can pay 1000 for the tech while trying to steal it and still not getting the tech and as a bonus the A.I will become mad at you. |
When I've used the "safest" option, I've never gotten caught. Sometimes I piss away a ton of cash, but more often than not, I get the tech.
My point about letting him take the happiness hit is that I'm usually perfectly happy to go to war with the AI, but I try not to declare it if I'm in a Democracy because my citizenry will revolt. That's not a big deal when playing religious, but it can be a real pain to wait through 4 turns of nonproductivity and unhappiness to complete the switch to Communism to be able to conduct the war. If the AI declares, my people get gung ho about going to war, because they are the aggressor, and the effects of citizens in previously captured cities from that AI is lessened.
Sometimes if all I really want is a war, it can be worth the 500 bucks or so to get my spies caught enough to make the AI declare (counterspy, get caught, plant spy (if caught, repeat), repeat). After getting caught three times, you can usually guarantee a war (unless the AI is under treaty with you at the time).
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23-04-2002 17:34
) that selling tech for whatever it was worth was better than getting nothing at all.
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