23-04-2002 22:05									#1
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Hi there. I wasn't very active lately, because of school matters. Also, I couldn't load Apolyton properly, and I daresay that the fact I could load it now is plain good luck.
I haven't forgotten my projects about German-East Africa nor about the Pacific Ocean however. I will resume the East Africa project once I get to read Von Vorbeck's book 'Heia Safari!' (I saw it at a truly wonderful bookshop in Bonn as an orginal release from 1920, but for some reason, I couldn't afford it for 20 € at that time).
I've carried together (almost) every piece of information about the history of the Polynesian, Melanesian and Micronesian cultures in the Pacific Room I could find from every piece of literature I have got, and every website I could find. The only thing standing out is to see what Capt. James Cook has to offer.
The idea is a naval based empire-building scenario including the above-mentioned tribes and the Maori as sepparate civilizations, and perhaps some Europeans as well. The player will cruise between some tiny islands to seek new settling grounds, which will be a hard task.
Now, I need your help. I need virtually every fact about naval units and AI in Civ2. Could we try to carry everything together so the AI will behave properly to make the game enjoyable?
Another question is, how large an island must be so that the AI will found a city on it.
I don't really have the time to try all this out by myself, so I'd be grateful for every bit of help you can give me.

Peace

	24-04-2002 02:06									#2
	No idea if it'll be any help, but . . . Remove this text

There is a similar thread over on the Civfanatics site. Kindal (J. M. Fernandez) asked virtually the same question about naval AI behavior and did garner some responses. You might take a look at that.

Sounds to me like someone is thinking about entering a scenario in the AGE OF SAIL SDC #4

	24-04-2002 03:22									#3
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Welcome back Stefan!

	24-04-2002 03:32									#4
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If you need help with NZ history come to me, coz i've studied it for 7years... and i live there!

	25-04-2002 01:07									#5
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download "Pit´s war at sea" and "Cruel Sea"

the best naval scenarios out there IMHO

	25-04-2002 02:46									#6
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The Maori called New Zealand Aotearoea and Chatham Island Aotea, IIRC. The majority of Maori are located in the modern province of Gisborne, thusly that would be an ideal starting location for them.

The Civ2 naval AI is funny, sometimes it'll function great, other times it won't...

	25-04-2002 11:34									#7
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For hawaian pics, serach for Herb Kane. there is a lot of stuff of his own on the NET.

To all the Nezzies: where can i found a nice site about "pa", the fortified Maori centers?

Stefan, i tHink you'll find this stuff useful: it's a collection of indonesian, melanesian and polinesian national dresses .

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	25-04-2002 13:03									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Prometeus To all the Nezzies: where can i found a nice site about "pa", the fortified Maori centers?

"Nezzies"?

Well. Without knowing if I fit into the category or not, I suggest looking at:

http://www.newzealandwars.co.nz/index.html

It should cover everything you want to know.

Also, for what it's worth, I was recently scolded for using the name "Aoteroa" for New Zealand - I'm reliably informed that it's just the Maori word for the North Island (aka New Ulster), the South Island (aka New Munster) would be Te Wai Pounamu, Stewart Island would be Rakiura, and the Chathams, Reikohu.

	25-04-2002 14:22									#9
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quote: Originally posted by WarVoid The Maori called New Zealand Aotearoea and Chatham Island Aotea, IIRC. The majority of Maori are located in the modern province of Gisborne, thusly that would be an ideal starting location for them. The Civ2 naval AI is funny, sometimes it'll function great, other times it won't...

That snot true at all i live in the country and the Maroi's did not start in Gisborne, and they live all over the country, there is no one 'maroi' there are all different tribes... its like scotland, but sometimes more voilent.

There were even maroi in the sth island and north island, there were none in chatham is, they were the mori mori.

	25-04-2002 14:28									#10
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quote: Originally posted by The Apologist Also, for what it's worth, I was recently scolded for using the name "Aoteroa" for New Zealand - I'm reliably informed that it's just the Maori word for the North Island (aka New Ulster), the South Island (aka New Munster) would be Te Wai Pounamu, Stewart Island would be Rakiura, and the Chathams, Reikohu.

For the people that dont live in New Zealand shhh!!!, The New Zealand wars were not one but many right from the discovery of nz to the about 1914. Also in New Zealand we use Aoteroa, it describes both 3 islands, not the Chathams.

Look guys if you wanna now the Facts e-mail me, or catch me on msn, coz you are describing things that you have not been learnt i think. And i have been thought it for 7 years. And majored in it.

Another thing its anzac day today and i would like to say to all new zealanders and aussies, god bless the men that fell in battle. For you gave your today for our tomorrow.

	26-04-2002 00:05									#11
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Well, to give you an idea of how I was thinking of it game-wise...
Each 'native' civ starts out with one island under their possession, and the goal is to expand (duh!). I don't know how well this would actually work in a single-player game, but I'd do my best to make it playable. It'll propably be well-suited for any kind of MP game.
I was originally thinking about letting the Maori start in canoes, but that would have been a huge disadvantage, especially when played by the AI.
What I really need to know is where the very first (even if mythical) landing site of the Maori was. Otherwise I'd let them start at Parengarenga, because that is northernmost and allows most exploration of NZ.
What exactly is the "Pa"? Is it more a fortress or more of a (fortified?) city?
Another big question is wether or not I should include Australia and the Aboriginies. The problem is that their culture is really hard to depict in the limitations of Civ2.
A further one is if the Papua should play a role, or if I should include New Guinea at all, because somehow, it's not really the same as all the tiny south sea cultures.

...it's allright, ma, it's life and life only...

	26-04-2002 03:08									#12
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I once did a scenario for pirates where the civ started out with no cities but had their settler on a privateer way out in the ocean and a musketeer and explorer unit.

After saving the scen, the game crashed... So I don't recommend trying it...

Although if you hit the ignore button about three hundred times it'll still work.

	26-04-2002 18:41									#13
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quote: After saving the scen, the game crashed... So I don't recommend trying it...

so an scenario must start with cities??
i´ve save a few games in the 4000bc as scenarios where any city was build and nothing happened

	27-04-2002 03:35									#14
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If you start a scen with the AI civs' single settler unit (the one you get at the start of the game) out on the ocean, in a ship, you will get an error promt and the game will crash. In Win95 you can just hit the ignore button like ten times and it'll skip it. Dunno about in Win98 and XP.

This problem DOES NOT occur in saved games, only scenarios. But then again, you can't place an AI's settler on water, in a ship, unless you cheat and make it into a scenario. So the point is moot.

	03-05-2002 13:40									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel I was originally thinking about letting the Maori start in canoes, but that would have been a huge disadvantage, especially when played by the AI.

I don't know if this is appropriate or not - it depends on when your scenario starts, and what you define as a civilisation. I'd be happy to look up the historical situation if you provide a starting date.

quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel What exactly is the "Pa"? Is it more a fortress or more of a (fortified?) city?

It's a difficult question to accurately answer - the Pa system that gave the British so much difficulty in the New Zealand Wars would be most simply described as a temporary fortification, normally used as a base for raiding. Very sophisticated strategic thinking involved - the Maori were the one people to beat the British without the advantage of numbers (indeed, at times fighting at odds of 3:1 or worse). Whether this needs to be covered in your scen. is a judgement call - I'd think not, unless you intend to include European colonisation.

quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel Another big question is wether or not I should include Australia and the Aboriginies. The problem is that their culture is really hard to depict in the limitations of Civ2. A further one is if the Papua should play a role, or if I should include New Guinea at all, because somehow, it's not really the same as all the tiny south sea cultures.

Perhaps include them as barbarians to slow up the spread of our intrepid seafarers, without putting the larger landmasses strictly off-limits?

	03-05-2002 13:47									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Soundwave For the people that dont live in New Zealand shhh!!!, The New Zealand wars were not one but many right from the discovery of nz to the about 1914. Also in New Zealand we use Aoteroa, it describes both 3 islands, not the Chathams.

The New Zealand Wars were fought through to 1914? Are you exaggerating for effect? I've never seen anything like that suggested by a serious historian. Feel free to enlighten me, either on the forum (the conflict would make a fine scenario IMO) or by e-mail.

	06-05-2002 20:24									#17
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To show you I'm actually doing something, here is a first screenshot.

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	06-05-2002 20:36									#18
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Wunderschön !!!

It looks great, Stefan!!!

Now just keep on working...

	06-05-2002 20:50									#19
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How the island can be so big? Are you using gigamap?

	07-05-2002 07:14									#20
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I'm back, so the NZ wars did finish back then, well 1914 when the Marois had there own king, with his own parilment that had eletcity i forget the name, and the police moved in and that was it and no further bloodshed, as two police officers were killed :P

And anywhere in the east or west m,iddle of the north island would be acceptable landing spot or 'first spot' for settlers

	07-05-2002 08:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Soundwave I'm back, so the NZ wars did finish back then, well 1914 when the Marois had there own king, with his own parilment that had eletcity i forget the name, and the police moved in and that was it and no further bloodshed, as two police officers were killed :P

I think its a bit of a stretch to use the term "war" to refer to any of the "disputes" outside the only major period of conflict - that being primarily during the late 1850's through the 1860's IIRC.

The only major "battle", as it would have been called in European terms, was during the mid-60's in the King country.
The others were basically light skirmishes - a few dozens of participants - and Maori raids, culminating in pursuits by the British army, and ultimately, retreats on the part of the Maori to regions less accessible.

Maori pa's were basically fortified marae's. Stockades, stakes, generally built on hilltops, the whole works. Highly sophisticated for their level of technology. These were not a response to European incursions though, rather a resultant of their own inter-tribal wars. They were never designed to stand up to heavy canon although their general inaccessibility contributed heavily to the Brits being largely unable to bring such weapons to bear.

I have no idea whether or not Aotearoa was originally used for the whole country or not (I would suspect not based upon the Maori "people" being broken up into seven different tribes and lacking the sort of worldview that would encourage them to think of all of the islands as a single entity) but it is the term we use today for all 3 main aslands.

	07-05-2002 15:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Soundwave I'm back, so the NZ wars did finish back then, well 1914 when the Marois had there own king, with his own parilment that had eletcity i forget the name, and the police moved in and that was it and no further bloodshed, as two police officers were killed :P

If that's your definition for warfare, then the New Zealand Wars are still going (or only very recently finished). I agree with Ravagon on the general period of the conflict, though I seem to recall that the last phase of the wars was fought in the 1870s.

On the other hand:

quote: Originally posted by Ravagon Maori pa's were basically fortified marae's. Stockades, stakes, generally built on hilltops, the whole works. Highly sophisticated for their level of technology. These were not a response to European incursions though, rather a resultant of their own inter-tribal wars. They were never designed to stand up to heavy canon although their general inaccessibility contributed heavily to the Brits being largely unable to bring such weapons to bear.

The statement above, while once popular, is quite false. The definitive source for the New Zealand Wars should be James Belich's book of the same name, and quite clearly illustrates the differences between the pa constructed before conflict with europeans, and the modern pa system constructed later.

	07-05-2002 20:51									#23
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quote: Wunderschön !!! It looks great, Stefan!!! Now just keep on working...

Danke I willl

quote: How the island can be so big? Are you using gigamap?

Well, it's not the map I am using, just a simple made-for-screenshot thingy meant to present some terrain and units graphics (a Samoan chief and a Samoan lady/settler), but think of this as a rough scale for islands the size of Vanua Levu (the second largest of the Fiji islands). In general, most Polynesian and Micronesian isles will be about two or three squares in average.

	08-05-2002 05:15									#24
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Look forget about the NZ wars, just get the video, of James Belich, i had to watch it enough, he said the 'conflicts' didn't stop till 1914, ok?? (damn)

	08-05-2002 23:54									#25
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you are working fast

nice screenshots!!!!

	09-05-2002 09:18									#26
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quote: Originally posted by The Apologist The statement above, while once popular, is quite false. The definitive source for the New Zealand Wars should be James Belich's book of the same name, and quite clearly illustrates the differences between the pa constructed before conflict with europeans, and the modern pa system constructed later.

Are you sure about that? I saw a documentary about 10 years back or so about Maori life/civilization before/during European contact and the pa's portrayed therein were almost identical (to the untrained eye anyway) to similar constructions during Europe's dark ages.

Course it could've been creative license I suppose, now that I think of it ...

[Creative license ... ]

	09-05-2002 09:25									#27
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Ok, this is going away from the point, the best place for Maori Settlements would be in the west and east of the north island, and for the French would be where christchurch is (akaroa). And for the English would be the town above moderned auckland, i cant remember the name, but i was made of sailors, sealers, whalers, etc, a real ruff town.

	10-05-2002 03:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Are you sure about that? I saw a documentary about 10 years back or so about Maori life/civilization before/during European contact and the pa's portrayed therein were almost identical (to the untrained eye anyway) to similar constructions during Europe's dark ages.

Quite sure. You're right in that pre-contact Maori pa were similar to dark ages style fortifications, but the modern pa used to fight the British army were more sophisticated in design - if not appearance. It's worth noting that modern pa weren't extensively built, and weren't used to fortify settlements - this would account for their relative obscurity.

Artistic license may also be a factor, though.


While I'm at it: the screenshot looks beautiful, Stefan. In an attempt to be more useful, I've flicked through the Oxford History of New Zealand for a short summary of immediately salient facts (but my offer to track down specifics still stands).

The commonly accepted date of Polynesian settlement of New Zealand was around AD 800 - though more recent examination suggests that AD 1100 (or later) may be a more likely date. Settlement was fairly swift and quite extensive, though weighted towards the North Island. In the South Island, the population was concentrated to the north and east.

	10-05-2002 08:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The Apologist The commonly accepted date of Polynesian settlement of New Zealand was around AD 800 - though more recent examination suggests that AD 1100 (or later) may be a more likely date. Settlement was fairly swift and quite extensive, though weighted towards the North Island. In the South Island, the population was concentrated to the north and east.

I qrote a whole big essay practically and then it was gone! but i was saying, that in Otago there is a 'wall' of square rocks, dating back over 1000years and in the town where i grew up in, Blenhiem, in the Wariou Lagoons, there are Maori tools and moa bones dating back well over 100years, and even if you had the Maori colonization peroid, dont forget the Mori Mori were here before even the Maori and Europeans.

Right... thats that i think.

	10-05-2002 21:01									#30
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Due to gameplay necessities/mechanics, I'm gonna create a special New Zealand terrain. Now I need three things - two ressources (Kiwi, Kiwi? ) and an appropriate name...