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Lincoln
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This is the continuation of the information portion of the discussion on the thread Ming closed that was a GENERAL creation vs. evolution debate. Please let’s stick to the topic which is information and how it came into existence as it now exists in the DNA of a living cell. Here were the key questions and the answers by Myself , Mcbaggin and Etheired.
McBaggin asked me:
1) Do all permutations of atoms (or other appropriate elements) contain all states of an object, including viable and non viable? True or False
2) Would some permutations of atoms appear to have meaning (like for instance a book with 'information')? True or False
3) Will an algorithm listing all permutations of 100 ASCII characters (all letters, numbers, symbols and spaces) produce a number of permutations where meaningful 'information' is produced? Yes or No
4) Does this imply that perceived 'information' can be found in permutations of random occurances given enough iterations occur? Yes or No
My answers were as follows:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No
4. No
Then McBaggin followed up:
Lincoln.. as a follow up
Here is a slightly abbreviated BASIC algorithm to print ascii permutations (18 characters- 100 would take hours... but 100 would use precisely the same concept, just more iterations)
for a = 1 to 127
for b = 1 to 127
for c = 1 to 127
for d = 1 to 127
for e = 1 to 127
for f = 1 to 127
for g = 1 to 127
for h = 1 to 127
for i = 1 to 127 for j = 1 to 127
for k = 1 to 127
for l = 1 to 127
for m = 1 to 127
for n = 1 to 127
for o = 1 to 127
for p = 1 to 127
for q = 1 to 127
for r = 1 to 127
string = chr$(a) + chr$(b) + chr$(c) + _
chr$(d) + chr$(e) + chr$(f) + _
chr$(g) + chr$(h) + chr$(i) + _
chr$(j) + chr$(k) + chr$(l) + _
chr$(m) + chr$(n) + chr$(o) + _
chr$(p) + chr$(q) + chr$(r)
print string
next r
next q
next p
next o
next n
next m
next l
next k
next j
next i
next h
next g
next f
next e
next d
next c
next b
next a
during the single permutation that when the print statement was reached
a was equal to 73
b was equal to 32
c was equal to 97
d was equal to 109
e was equal to 32
f was equal to 103
g was equal to 111
h was equal to 105 i was equal to 110
j was equal to 103
k was equal to 32
l was equal to 116
m was equal to 111
n was equal to 32
o was equal to 98
p was equal to 101
q was equal to 100
r was equal to 46
then
quote: I am going to bed.
would appear on the screen- an exact coded informational sentence that you have used.
Is there any magic involved? Any intelligence required by the algorithm?
No...
Why?
There is no specific aim for the algorithm to generate 'coded information', however it randomly DOES occur within the output of the algorithm.
Now... Lincoln... i’ll ask 3 again. To be fair, i’ll replace the number 100 with 18, and tender the above algorithm (using the BASIC programming language) as evidence.
3) Will an algorithm listing all permutations of 18 ASCII characters (all letters, numbers, symbols and spaces) produce a number of permutations where meaningful 'information' is produced? Yes or No
In the event that you answer no, to save another redundant post ... if no, explain.
Now here is my answer:
You were looking for (in question 3 and 4) “meaningful” information. Even if your program (which has not been evaluated yet for the intelligent input of the programmer) wrote an entire encyclopedia it would not be ‘meaningful’ information because you (or we or whoever) assigned meaning to it before we even began. Here is an illustration that should clarify what I mean:
If there was absolutely no life on this planet and we were able to view the natural process blowing things around and forming certain order among the confusion and we came upon the sentence spelled out in rocks or whatever; “I am going to bed”, What would that tell us? Well it would tell us nothing at all because material forces of the universe know nothing of the English language or our alphabet, grammar etc.. Intelligent agents (us) assigned meaning to that particular order of letters and spaces. Unless you assume that matter has knowledge like this then a random process or a Genetic Algorithm invented by us humans is only reflecting our intelligence and parroting the meaning we have assigned to these particular letters and spaces. Therefore an algorithm listing all permutations of 18 ASCII characters will only do what the intelligent agent has programmed it to do. And the ‘information’ it produces only has meaning to him (or a machine he has invented).
Now here were some questions I asked Etheired:
Lincoln asked:
How does “autocatalysis” and a random order of RNA produce a code along with a translation process?
Secificly we don't know. Generaly the answer is evolution. Once an imperfectly self reproducing molecule exists evolution not only can occur but it MUST occur.
Lincoln asked:
How did the “the translation mechanism” come into existence?
Same answer.
Lincoln asked:
You’re suggesting the self organization of tRNA. How did about 20 of them form themselves to match both the coded instructions in DNA and the appropriate units of the ribosomes?
From the previous versions of similar things. One possible way is that a RNA copying enzyme copied another instead of itself. If they were somehow linked this could allow for specialization of one to store the information and the other to do the copying. By concatenating the two different molecules into one there would be a copy of the information for the copier and a copy of the information of for the data itself.
Lincoln asked:
How are the triplets discerned initially?
The triplets came later. Those came after the RNA code dropped the minor difference between it and DNA to become actual DNA. The coding is more efficient than just getting lucky.
Lincoln asked:
What selective advantage is there for one sequence of RNA or DNA over another if the code or the translation mechanism is unknown?
It matters not whether the code is know or unknown the answer is the same. Survival. One that doesn't survive is gone one that does survive, well it survives and reproduces.
Yes thats speculation. Without evidence that is all there is. That it is speculation does not make it invalid. Its more than you have since you cannot even do this much to explain where the hypothetical creator came from.
You insisted on an answer. Since we have made it very clear the answer is not known don't complain about this being speculation. You were the one that insisted.
Now here is my response and then let the discussion continue with the following rules please.
1. Stick to the topic.
2. Please make answers concise if at all possible.
3. There is no reason to call each other names. We are all learning so let’s see where this leads.
4. Please no general debate on evolution. Only that portion which is relevant to this topic. Remember we are talking about the ORIGIN here so we cannot use existing life to solve the problem of the beginning of it.
Okay here is my answer to Etheired:
You said that survival is the key to preserving one order of RNA over another regardless of whether the code or translation mechanism is known. What would cause one random order to survive and not another? And why would the one surviving be more beneficial to preserving the “species” (or proto life) than another? If we are trying to make a code here along with a translation process with the use of mRNA, tRNA, ribosomes and the chain of nucleotide “letters”. What advantage is there even if a particular order survives if the code is not known beforehand?
You say that “the triplets come later” when DNA supposedly takes over. But regardless of when DNA takes over what good is the random sequence of RNA or even an ordered sequence if the triplets are not discerned? The code is made up of triplets. How do they become significant so that they can survive as triplets? Otherwise the preserving of RNA has no advantage for the evolving code. And what use are there of even the triplets if the translation process is unknown so that they can be used to effect the translation into 20 amino acids. And how is the unique (and mandatory) 3 dimensional folding of the enzymes and associated proteins foreseen by the process as it is evolving?
If the process actually works in a reverse order (proteins first with the accompanying information) how does this information (AA sequence) get turned around into a code? Anyway, you said that you didn’t know so you don’t have to answer any of these questions. But maybe someone else can.
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MrBaggins
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Meaning only happens on the receipt.
quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
You were looking for (in question 3 and 4) “meaningful” information. Even if your program (which has not been evaluated yet for the intelligent input of the programmer) wrote an entire encyclopedia it would not be ‘meaningful’ information because you (or we or whoever) assigned meaning to it before we even began. Here is an illustration that should clarify what I mean:
If there was absolutely no life on this planet and we were able to view the natural process blowing things around and forming certain order among the confusion and we came upon the sentence spelled out in rocks or whatever; “I am going to bed”, What would that tell us? Well it would tell us nothing at all because material forces of the universe know nothing of the English language or our alphabet, grammar etc.. Intelligent agents (us) assigned meaning to that particular order of letters and spaces. Unless you assume that matter has knowledge like this then a random process or a Genetic Algorithm invented by us humans is only reflecting our intelligence and parroting the meaning we have assigned to these particular letters and spaces. Therefore an algorithm listing all permutations of 18 ASCII characters will only do what the intelligent agent has programmed it to do. And the ‘information’ it produces only has meaning to him (or a machine he has invented).
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OK... lock the computer into an airtight time vault, and allow it to run.
After the time it would have finished, Invent an new word. 'yualarti' assign its meaning to be 'a being the size of the planet Earth', for the purpose of this experiment.
and integrate it into a sentence 18 characters long.
We're not yualarti
Open the vault.
Among the output of the program will be 'We're not yualarti' among other grammatically correct output, utilizing the same coded informational word.
What happened? Did the meaning time travel back? No.
Meaning only happens on receipt of information.
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MrBaggins
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BTW... according to your rules...
3. There is no reason to call each other names. We are all learning so let’s see where this leads.
You should avoid calling me anything but MrBaggins.
Baggins is acceptable, but Mcbaggin is most certainly not. You don't need to edit your post, but you can use the correct nick from now on, or forfeit.
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MrBaggins
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4. Please no general debate on evolution. Only that portion which is relevant to this topic. Remember we are talking about the ORIGIN here so we cannot use existing life to solve the problem of the beginning of it.
I disagree with this rule.
Although I agree we should not talk specifically about Evolution, in terms of bones, in terms of DNA it is important.
Information only exists because it existed historically.
The meaning of the alphabet and all words 'now' is predicated on their historical origin.
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Lincoln
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MrBaggins,
Sorry for mispelling your name. It was not intentional.
You say that meaning only happens on the receipt of information. Received by who or what? If there is communication there must be a sender and receiver. How else is meaning determined?
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MrBaggins
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The sender is a CRT. It transmits information via photons.
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MrBaggins
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and received by you...
the word inventor in the example
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Lincoln
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You still haven't clarified how meaning is determined so that there is true communication.
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MrBaggins
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You determined the meaning of the word. After the computer completed the task.
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Lincoln
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So then an intelligent agent intervened.
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MrBaggins
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No... you interpreted the meaning of the photons... after the computer had produced them.
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Lincoln
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Well you still cannot solve the problem without a "you".
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MrBaggins
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IE only the receiving agent is intelligent.
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Lincoln
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I don't agree but let's say that you are right. You still require an intelligent agent to establish meaningfull communication.
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MrBaggins
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Not on the originating end.
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Lincoln
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Both parts have to originate somehow. The origin of the sender is of no use without a receiver and the origin of the receiver is of no use without a sender. Either way you require intelligence to solve the problem
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MrBaggins
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You are getting away from the example.
The originator is a computer algorithm.
A computer algorithm is not intelligent.
This algorithm does not even contain conditional statements.
Only iteration and function statements.
It originated meaningless information which had meaning to you.
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Lincoln
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The question was whether "meaningful" information could be produced by machine without intelligent input. The answer is no.
The originator is a human programmer. The argorithm was devised by a human and the meaning must be understood by a human or a machine invented by a human. We are not taking about the laws of physics which cause atoms to associate according to those laws. A computer can use those laws and give appropriate results. But when we are talking about meaningful information then there must be an agreement between two intelligent agents or machines created by an intelligent agent.
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Lincoln
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Yes loinburger but there is no communication between you and the grapfruit. Also you have still not eliminated the intelligent agent. Someone has to assign the meaning at some point. And the point of this discussion is the nature of information that is in coded form in DNA. The communication within the cell has real meaning because it produces specific results.
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MrBaggins
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actually... no.
The fact that the algorithm had an inventor is irrelevent.
The algorithm is incapable of reason or comprehension.
This is because it remembers NOTHING
This is because it decides NOTHING
notice that the BASIC program does not store anything or use any conditions.
I am only using a computer as an example because we can all imagine a computer and all duplicate the situation
Another way of carrying out the proceedure would be to use atomic decay.
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MrBaggins
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IE The basic program cannot learn or know or understand anything all it does is an automaton process.
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Lincoln
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"...because my algorithm spit it out, and since it's an intelligent source of information I just know that there's some meaning to this phrase..."
Well you are proving my point then. There is no meaning until you assign one.
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MrBaggins
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The dictionary definition of intelligence
in·tel·li·gence Pronunciation Key (n-tl-jns)
n.
The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.
The faculty of thought and reason.
Superior powers of mind. See Synonyms at mind.
An intelligent, incorporeal being, especially an angel.
Information; news. See Synonyms at news.
Secret information, especially about an actual or potential enemy.
An agency, staff, or office employed in gathering such information.
Espionage agents, organizations, and activities considered as a group: “Intelligence is nothing if not an institutionalized black market in perishable commodities” (John le Carré).
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MrBaggins
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AHAH... but the algorithm produced the information BEFORE it became meaningful information
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Lincoln
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If you are right MrBaggins then that is why it cannot produce meaningful information. If it is more complicated than you suggest then it can produce information with the meaning that you assigned it. Either way it requires intelligent input to produce meaningful information.
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24-04-2002 06:22
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