24-04-2002 17:27									#1
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The MPPs don't always seem to make sense.

Real life example: Italy has an MPP with Greece, and with Turkey. Should Greece decide to attack Turkey, Italy certainly will not declare war on Greece.

However, in Civ3 Italy will have to declare war on Greece. If you have an MPP with two other civs, you are seriously screwed if one of your allies gets in a war with the other one. Doesn't make sense at all.

	24-04-2002 17:48									#2
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Well, I do not know how it works when you have MPP with two civs and one of them declare war on the other. Maybe you automatically declare war on the attacker.
But when it is the case for an AI, it keeps the more advantageous MPP.
In fact the AI sometimes has strange diplomatical notions. For example, in my current game, the following case happens three or more times : A is in war against B and me; I ask C to declare war against A; some turns later C also declare war on B.

	25-04-2002 01:23									#3
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The side that invades the other's homeland is the one who you are forced to declare war on. I have seen several games where I was attacked by civ X and his allies didn't declare war on me, but as soon as I beat his invasion force and invaded his country then they declared war on me.
Silly isn't it? He sneak attacks me, yet, I am declared the bad guy.

	25-04-2002 01:50									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

firaxis tried to make this game as anti-war as they could (although it's really impossible to take too much of it away). they made it so all the AIs could kill you if u were agressive.

	25-04-2002 02:13									#5
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It certainly is difficult for me to always know what state of furious (or whatever) another civ is with me (and others). I think another F-key with some kind of table with pertinent details might be useful.

ie Persians ->furious because of repeated border incursions-> effects wear off in 20 turns.

	25-04-2002 02:13									#6
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Still, I usually need wars to win the game.

	25-04-2002 04:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX firaxis tried to make this game as anti-war as they could (although it's really impossible to take too much of it away). they made it so all the AIs could kill you if u were agressive.

Hell, you don't HAVE to be aggressive. The AI will attack you anyways. Even if they are Gracious towards you.

As for MPP, I am getting to the point where I refuse these 90% of the time. They only serve to drag you into a war when you aren't looking for one. If I need an ally, I will pick and choose who I want to ally with after war is declared.

In my latest game, the French are my hated enemies. They sneak attacked me while we had gracious relations. We've gone through 3 wars now, and right now we have an uneasy peace going. She had the nerve to ask for an MPP. "Yeah right! Kiss my MPP, Joan De *****!"

	25-04-2002 04:57									#8
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX firaxis tried to make this game as anti-war as they could (although it's really impossible to take too much of it away). they made it so all the AIs could kill you if u were agressive.

Based upon that, the Culture Flipping nonsense, the choce of Mao as a leader, and all the pitiful Politically Correct garbage with the leaders (all thiose females, and a dark-skinned Cleopatra), it seems clear a bunch of far out Left-wingers have taken over Firaxis. They still are capitalists enough to want all our money though.

	25-04-2002 05:06									#9
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I dunno, I've found they can be extremely useful. My last game:

I (as the Russians) have a large Greece to my north. I've been fortifying infantry in every square along my border for a while, starting with the north border. When I have about 10 squares left on the southernmost border, I notice several stacks of 10-15 Greek infantry moving along the eastern edge of my border. Warning lights go off. Two turns later (and 2 border squares left) a stack of 8 greek infantry moves into one of my southern border squares.

At this point, I could have demanded that the Greeks leave, almost certainly provoking a war. However, I have just built the last three infantry needed to seal of my nation completely (needed 3 instead of 2 because of the location of the Greek stack). So, despite being in a Democracy, I plan my 20 year war.

I call up all the remaining nations but one (which has an MPP with my eastern neighbor) and secure MPPs. I then seal my borders. If Greece has designs on my nation, he will be forced to attack me, triggering the MPPs.

Lo and behold, Greece attacks, triggering MPPs and causing all but one nation to declare war. After that first attack, the remaining Greek infantry stacks still in my eastern neighbor's territory decide he is a juicier target and attack him, triggering the last MPP.

20 years later, the whole world is still at war with Greece. He has gained four cities from my eastern neighbor, lost one to me on my "southern" border, and lost two to my razes (one size 17 that flipped back once and 1 size 6). I call each other civ, cancel my MPPs, and negotiate a peace treaty with Greece. 4 turns later, they have lost their 4 gained cities to some late arriving troops from distant civs, and the rest of the world is still at war with them.

Since everyone was going to end up at war with Greece, I was confident that they wouldn't open up a second front, inadvertantly triggering my MPPs again and drawing me in. And now they are all concentrating on Greece while I make a run at the tech lead.

Only took 20% into happiness to keep my Democracy from sliding into Anarchy due to war weariness too.

	25-04-2002 08:44									#10
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If you understand how they work, then you can use them to your advantage.

Say the Aztecs and the Zulus have an MPP together. Your just sitting there by yourself. The Aztecs suddenly declare war on you, and you know that if they both gang up on you, you'll be in trouble. Well, just get an MPP with the Zulus. LET the Aztecs attack you on your homeground.
Suddenly their allies will be at war with them, and obviously will cancel the MPP they had. Now you can attack the Aztecs all you want and you get an ally to help too.

	25-04-2002 11:39									#11
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Why not just get the Zulus to out and out ally with you against the Aztecs? Works for me. It's probably a bit more expensive though.

When I find myself in a war, I waste no time in getting alliances against my oppo. I have found if I wait, sometimes they get the peanut gallery on their side first. Grrrr...

	25-04-2002 14:27									#12
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quote: I call up all the remaining nations but one (which has an MPP with my eastern neighbor) and secure MPPs. I then seal my borders. If Greece has designs on my nation, he will be forced to attack me, triggering the MPPs.

If any of those nations decide to attack one of the other nations that you have an MPP with, you'll be forced to break your MPP with the agressor and declare war on him.

	26-04-2002 00:29									#13
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St Marcus, as I said later, I was fairly confident that they wouldn't open up a second front. I knew the risks and decided to take them. First of all I was unsure that I could get (or beat the greeks to) military alliances. Second, I figured that the most likely MPP to be triggered was by an attack on my southern neighbor from western civs, and that southern neighbor cut off access to a land bridge to the western side of the single landmass. Thus, their borders would have protected me. Besides, since I was going to have 20 years worth of democratic war regardless of a second war, and the borders were defended (by my infantry and another civ), in this case it was very much worth the risk.

The southern civ ended up calling a peace, so now those western superpowers are slowly bringing around huge armies to pound on the Greeks.

	27-04-2002 07:44									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Based upon that, the Culture Flipping nonsense, the choce of Mao as a leader, and all the pitiful Politically Correct garbage with the leaders (all thiose females, and a dark-skinned Cleopatra), it seems clear a bunch of far out Left-wingers have taken over Firaxis. They still are capitalists enough to want all our money though.

I don't really blame Firaxis for the PCness. It just is not worth the risk of a lawsuit to tailor to the left and liberal. They also have to think of their European sales also. It not really Firaxis they have taken over, but politics and society in general.

	28-04-2002 06:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle and a dark-skinned Cleopatra.

Huh? Cleopatra was dark-skinned. She lived in Africa, you know...

	28-04-2002 06:40									#16
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She's not as dark-skinned now, as she was when the first screens of her were released. IIRC, there was a big uproar on the boards about that.

	28-04-2002 06:56									#17
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all those homosex... i mean greeks were screaming that she was greek.

	28-04-2002 10:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX all those homosex... i mean greeks were screaming that she was greek.

But she is Greek. A direct descendent of one of Alexander the Great's regents. But save that for another discussion.


Anyway, I won't use MPP. I find that the Germans and Zulu aren't the only ones likely to go back on it. Those AI are a bunch of conniving bastards.

	28-04-2002 13:28									#19
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why not just get the Zulus to out and out ally with you against the Aztecs? Works for me. It's probably a bit more expensive though.

That was it exactly. They would not get into an alliance with me at all, but would sign a MPP. This normally would carry a risk of me being dragged into another war by them, but considering there were only 3 civs left, including me, that wasn't a consideration.