25-04-2002 04:46									#1
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Why Joan over Napoleon? Is it some PC thing where Firaxis thought they had to give some of the leader positions to women? Napoleon deserves to sit next to Julius, Alexander, and Elizabeth. I have nothing against Joan, but I don't think she should bump Napoleon for the spot.

	25-04-2002 04:52									#2
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Why not Napoleon??

Because Firaxis in its tawdriness wanted to "sex up" the game, and be pathetically Politically Correct with all those female leaders.

I changed her to Napoleon months ago. There are sites posted that supply new heads you can download.

	25-04-2002 05:06									#3
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Coracle,

quote: I changed her to Napoleon months ago. There are sites posted that supply new heads you can download.

Please provide a link.

	25-04-2002 06:54									#4
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I am an aficionado of Napoleon, but Joan was instrumental in the unification of France, and is a symbol of French national unity.

	25-04-2002 06:55									#5
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Coracle, if Joan "sexed up" civ, I would imagine you think that Civ2 was not sexed up. In that case, please explain to me:

1) The viking herald. I beleive the manual even has an acknowledgement to the artist who "finally put some clothes on the viking herald."

2) The egyptian herald, who looks more like a pole dancer than an ambassador.

Hey Coracle: I know you may not be old enough to understand it, but: cleavage is a fact of life. Yep. Civ3 is less "sexed up" than Civ2, and the fact that you can't handle a basic piece of the female anatomy probably better than a small child isn't something you want to be yelling out to everyone at Apolyton. Then again, if you are looking for our disdain...

	25-04-2002 07:09									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Why not Napoleon?? Because Firaxis in its tawdriness wanted to "sex up" the game, and be pathetically Politically Correct with all those female leaders. I changed her to Napoleon months ago. There are sites posted that supply new heads you can download.

I agree, welcome to the world of PC. Why did firaxis insert the Zulus? They started in southern Africa, yet are considered middle eastern culture. Sounds like a quick implementation of a civ to me. I'm sure there are a couple of other large African empires out there in history to insert. Wasn't Ethiopia an Egyptian rival for a while?

	25-04-2002 11:46									#7
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Firaxis did not 'insert' the Zulus. They've been in the game since CIV 1, IIRC. At the very least, they were in CIV2.

	25-04-2002 12:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Mongoose Firaxis did not 'insert' the Zulus. They've been in the game since CIV 1, IIRC. At the very least, they were in CIV2.

Yes, they already were in Civ I.

	25-04-2002 15:42									#9
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Considering that the french UU is the musketeer, I would have considered Louis XIV the best leader for France.
Of course, I can't protest to have my dear Napoléon chosen
Jeanne d'Arc was perhaps a huge symbol in France unity, but she was never the country ruler, only an emblematic icon. She should be a great leader, NOT the ruler.

	25-04-2002 17:36									#10
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Clearly the best choice to represent France is Charles "The Hammer" Martel. His defeat of a Muslim army in 732 checked the spread of Islam into Western Europe. Without The Hammer there would have been no Carolingian Emire, no Charlemagne.

	25-04-2002 18:06									#11
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Napoleon should have been the French leader, although Joan d'Arc does look kind of hot.

	25-04-2002 18:08									#12
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quote: Originally posted by LordAngus Clearly the best choice to represent France is Charles "The Hammer" Martel. His defeat of a Muslim army in 732 checked the spread of Islam into Western Europe. Without The Hammer there would have been no Carolingian Emire, no Charlemagne.

True, but there are countless decisive battles like that throughout history. I think you need to rank overall achievement. Martel's victory might have been more important in the long run, but Napoleon swept across Europe with ease. It's just unfortunate he didn't plan ahead when he attacked Russia.

	25-04-2002 21:24									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Why not Napoleon?? Because Firaxis in its tawdriness wanted to "sex up" the game, and be pathetically Politically Correct with all those female leaders. I changed her to Napoleon months ago. There are sites posted that supply new heads you can download.

Wait! They wanted to be Politicaly Correct _and_ sex up the game?!?! this might be the single stupidest thing you have ever said...

	25-04-2002 21:31									#14
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I think that the leaders are chosen based on upon the fact that they are responsible for "nationalisim". Jean D'Arc helped Unite France. Abe Lincon not only kept america as one country; but was the first president to really _think_ of it as one country; or at least one of the first. Bismark unified Germany, right (even with a Prussian Grandmother, my knowlage of german history is shaky)? Elizebeth is a harder case to make, but she allowed both protestent and Catholic to co-exist, arguably keeping her nation together...

Some of the other leaders seem based more on fame. Without looking it up on the internet, who can name another leader of the Zulu?

	25-04-2002 21:40									#15
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Just to cast my vote, I prefer Napoleon too. I imagine he is enormously popular with great-ruler-wannabes who would play Civ, so I was surprised when he was replaced.

I think he much better represents what a Civ leader is doing. After all, your civ starts out already united anyway.

Hey, he was even on the back of the Civ1 box!

	25-04-2002 22:40									#16
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I'm torn. Thinking about significance, my preference would probably be Napoleon, followed by de Gaulle (sentimental reasons).

But on the other hand, without Joan for sex value, all we have are Cleo and the Domestic Nag.

...ALL the leaders should be young ladies!

	26-04-2002 01:22									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Sava True, but there are countless decisive battles like that throughout history. I think you need to rank overall achievement. Martel's victory might have been more important in the long run, but Napoleon swept across Europe with ease. It's just unfortunate he didn't plan ahead when he attacked Russia.

That seems to be a trait of European megalomaniacs doesn't it?

	26-04-2002 05:24									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mongoose Firaxis did not 'insert' the Zulus. They've been in the game since CIV 1, IIRC. At the very least, they were in CIV2.

I only played Civ for the SNES. I didn't bother with Civ1, Civ2 because of the senate. I skipped them for Civ3.

	26-04-2002 05:45									#19
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You didn't buy Civ2 simply because of the Senate? That seems like a pretty small gripe to pass up such a good game... why not just go Commie or Fundy?

He's right, though, the Zulus have been in since the beginning. The reason they are a Middle Eastern Civ is not because they were thrown in at the last minute, but because Firaxis didn't want to throw in more random African civs to make another culture set.

	26-04-2002 06:22									#20
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Re: Attacking Russia and not thinking ahead

quote: Originally posted by Willem That seems to be a trait of European megalomaniacs doesn't it?

Huh? Nelson never attacked Russia...

	26-04-2002 06:35									#21
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We've had this debate a thousand times before.

	26-04-2002 06:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew Cory Re: Attacking Russia and not thinking ahead Huh? Nelson never attacked Russia...

Now how do you equate Nelson with megalomania? He's barely a footnote in European history as I understand it, just another military lackey operating on orders from on high. That's hardly the trait of a megalomaniac, like Napolean and Hitler. Mind you I don't know a great deal about him, but he doesn't really fit my concept of the term.

	26-04-2002 06:45									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Now how do you equate Nelson with megalomania? He's barely a footnote in European history as I understand it, just another military lackey operating on orders from on high. That's hardly the trait of a megalomaniac, like Napolean and Hitler. Mind you I don't know a great deal about him, but he doesn't really fit my concept of the term.

At that Battle of Copenhagen when the British sneak attacked the Danish fleet, nelson "turned a blind eye" to his commanding admiral's orders because Nelson had other ideas.

Maybe not megalomania, but something.

	26-04-2002 06:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Now how do you equate Nelson with megalomania? He's barely a footnote in European history as I understand it, just another military lackey operating on orders from on high. That's hardly the trait of a megalomaniac, like Napolean and Hitler. Mind you I don't know a great deal about him, but he doesn't really fit my concept of the term.

Well, to be honest, I was just talking out of my butt. The important thing was to mention a _navel_ officer, and one that had a good reputation...

	26-04-2002 06:50									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Now how do you equate Nelson with megalomania? He's barely a footnote in European history as I understand it, just another military lackey operating on orders from on high. That's hardly the trait of a megalomaniac, like Napolean and Hitler. Mind you I don't know a great deal about him, but he doesn't really fit my concept of the term.

Nelson was not a megalomaniac. He was a great naval commander, and loyal to the crown. He defeated the French fleet which protected England from invasion by Napoleon. Before the Battle of Trafalgar he said, "England expects that every man will do his duty." When he died victorious he said, "Now I am satisfied. Thank God, I have done my duty.”

	26-04-2002 06:55									#26
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Ooohhh wouldn't Napoleon be mad if he found out a thread about him got turned into a thread about Nelson!

Heh heh

Now I'm reminded of that quote in the Civ2 scenario ... something like 'wherever wood can float, there I find that flag of England!'

	26-04-2002 06:59									#27
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quote: Originally posted by nato Ooohhh wouldn't Napoleon be mad if he found out a thread about him got turned into a thread about Nelson!

Was this supposed to be a picture of Napoleon at Saint Helena? Good likeness.

	26-04-2002 07:45									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Considering that the french UU is the musketeer, I would have considered Louis XIV the best leader for France.

considering the panzer is the UU for germany, i would have considered Hitler the best leader for germany.

	26-04-2002 07:51									#29
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX considering the panzer is the UU for germany, i would have considered Hitler the best leader for germany.

He probably would have been provided he was not so politically incorrect.

	26-04-2002 10:17									#30
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