26-04-2002 12:39									#31
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Because we're not animals, and neither is he. The death penalty is wrong when alternatives to protect society exist.

	26-04-2002 12:43									#32
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Because we're not animals, and neither is he. The death penalty is wrong when alternatives to protect society exist.

I am an animal, and so is he.
The death penalty is right because he could just escape (like it's SO hard to do in the Canadian Club Fed-type prison system), and he stands as a continuing reminder to the victim's families that he can take their relative's lives while he still gets to watch color TV, eat three square meals a day, and live a pretty damn decent life behind bars.

Death to serial killers, especially when they're caught in the act. Add to this further that you're advocating a foreign country front the enormous cost for keeping this guy alive boggles my mind.

	26-04-2002 15:05									#35
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Europe and Canada the refuge of murderers and terroists.

I bet ya'll don't put that on the travel brochures.

	26-04-2002 16:10									#36
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Refuge ?

From what I've heard about that case, the US failed to substantiate its charges.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk...000/1949435.stm

If it had chosen to substantiate the charges, the DP issue would have arisen. if the US would have refused to rule out the DP, he would have been tried in a UK court.

quote: But the US Government said he was still a suspect and sought extradition for falsifying an application to the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) for a US pilot's licence. Mr Raissi had not declared a previous conviction for theft and a knee operation. The court heard he had been convicted in 1993 of stealing a briefcase and its contents. He was fined £150 and £30 costs at Uxbridge Magistrates Court.

A refuge for terrorists. Indeed.

	26-04-2002 16:35									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Refuge ? From what I've heard about that case, the US failed to substantiate its charges.

Roland: They don't want to talk about that. They just want to show how Britain showed up the US. I just gave them something to talk about thats all.

	26-04-2002 16:39									#38
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Hmm... must have been before the canadian infighting...

	26-04-2002 16:45									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So did Canada, but we recently extradited Charles Ng back to California, no? (It kinda made big news here, since the serial killer was arrested at the local mall for shoplifting, of all things, and he shot an unarmed mall security guard before being tackled )

I thank Canada for that. Ng is a monster. I have seen photos of what he did and the nice little list of instructions he and his friend gave their victims to follow while they remained alive as sex toys.

	26-04-2002 16:48									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Hmm... must have been before the canadian infighting...

Yeah I was talking about the original intent of the thread. Someone already mentioned that the whole point was that the US failed to provide evidence supporting their claim. But that was quickly looked over. Then again, the thread would have died if they had looked at that point.

	26-04-2002 16:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Because we're not animals, and neither is he. The death penalty is wrong when alternatives to protect society exist.

All humans are animals. Especially Charles Ng. Few animals are would do what he did so please don't insult the innocent kittens.

	26-04-2002 16:49									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Hmm... must have been before the canadian infighting...

By the way, I expet Alberta to declare war on the rest of Canada soon with Asher in command.

	26-04-2002 16:54									#43
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So would the US be happy to extradite a US citizen from the US to a country where the punishment was beheading or being tortured to death?

	26-04-2002 16:59									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Yeah I was talking about the original intent of the thread. Someone already mentioned that the whole point was that the US failed to provide evidence supporting their claim.

Yes the US did a lousy job at best. The US appears to have just claimed he was involved without showing evidence. Then they tried a bunch of exceedingly technical complaints about the guy. Those technaicalities might have had some use if the US had information that could not be divulged publicly at the moment. Since the Judge did not take advantage of the technicality I must assume the US did not even have secret evidence that showed much of anything.

Right now it looks like the US wanted him as a by product of guilt by association and was hoping to find admissable evidence after the Feds got their hands on him. Considering the way the Bush administration is trying to avoid dealing with US laws by treating these guys as war criminals they are going to have start producing evidence a bit stronger than a claim that someone might have been seen of the prescence of someone else.

	26-04-2002 17:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh So would the US be happy to extradite a US citizen from the US to a country where the punishment was beheading or being tortured to death?

Beheading would be OK I suppose. Tortured to death is another thing. I think that would go against quite a few international treaties. I would guess that the US never refused to extradite to France before they stopped using the guilotine. I don't the suppose the opportunity arose very often though.

Beheading is cleaner than the electric chair. Thats a pretty nasty method of execution and most states no longer use it.

	26-04-2002 17:04									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The man lived his life to take life from others, why should we pay to keep him alive and mock the families of those he killed?

Well put. That is why the Death Penalty should be kept.

BUT

And this is a big BUT. The Justice system needs to be reformed so that to prevent innocents from being on death row. There have been hundreds in Illinois that have been exonerrated by DNA evidence.

	26-04-2002 17:05									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Beheading would be OK I suppose. Tortured to death is another thing. I think that would go against quite a few international treaties. I would guess that the US never refused to extradite to France before they stopped using the guilotine. I don't the suppose the opportunity arose very often though. Beheading is cleaner than the electric chair. Thats a pretty nasty method of execution and most states no longer use it.

Beheading cleaner? You do realize that when you cut off the head, blood is going to go everywhere.

	26-04-2002 18:33									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Beheading cleaner? You do realize that when you cut off the head, blood is going to go everywhere.

It was a good system :
1) It was the most painless (the guillotine was created to deliver a painless death).
2) French citizens had a clear view of the blood they had on their hands. No asceptized death here : cries then blood, the true reality of the death.

I'm against the DP, but if DP exists, it must be public.

	26-04-2002 18:57									#49
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior It was a good system : 1) It was the most painless (the guillotine was created to deliver a painless death). 2) French citizens had a clear view of the blood they had on their hands. No asceptized death here : cries then blood, the true reality of the death. I'm against the DP, but if DP exists, it must be public.

Painles?? Are you aware that there are claims that a person can stay alive for up to 6 seconds after being beheaded? Apparently during the French revolution they used to hold the head up to the crowd and often the head would try to say something! yuck!

Opponents of this belief say that it is just random muscle spasms, but I don't think much research has been done on this.....

	26-04-2002 19:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Beheading cleaner? You do realize that when you cut off the head, blood is going to go everywhere.

Yes I do. But the corpse won't catch fire like Sparky has done in at least execution. In any case its over pretty quick. Electocution can take a while.

Both are sloppy.

I know a much better way. Just use a carbon dioxide absorber and a small volume of air. I saw Dr. Jonathon Miller do this on some medical series. Thats the Miller from the old Brittish comedy troupe Beyound the Fringe that included Peter Cook and Dudley Moore. Anyway he just slowly lost consciousness. If a stagehand hadn't removed the mask he would have died without ever noticing.

	26-04-2002 19:36									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Painles?? Are you aware that there are claims that a person can stay alive for up to 6 seconds after being beheaded? Apparently during the French revolution they used to hold the head up to the crowd and often the head would try to say something! yuck!

This just has to be a BS

	26-04-2002 21:36									#52
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AFAIK it's not.

	26-04-2002 21:41									#54
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There is still enough juice to power neural operations for a few seconds afterwards... as to whether there is enough stored energy in the jaw muscles and tongue is a different matter... and there is no back pressure for the larynx to work.

Seems BS

To confirm... I do believe that the brain is 'aware of the damage' until stored energy runs out in a couple of seconds but is not necessarily able to do anything about it, such as speech.

	26-04-2002 21:45									#55
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yes, but you actually notice your own decapitaiton and are aware of it, right?

	26-04-2002 21:45									#56
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correct... not a nice way to go

since no means of death is instant, there is always awareness of bad things happening, within the brain.

The kindest way to go is the quickest; atomization by explosive, brain first.

	26-04-2002 21:47									#57
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what about being shot? like being shot into your chest (heart, maybe)... i´s it the same? do you notice there's something not wrong and then slowly (or maybe quickly) pass away in mind despite being unable to communicate outwards since seconds ago?

	26-04-2002 21:52									#58
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quote: Ecthelion wrote something in the manner of what about being shot? like being shot into your chest (heart, maybe)... i´s it the same? do you notice there's something not wrong and then slowly (or maybe quickly) pass away in mind despite being unable to communicate outwards since seconds ago?

Interrupting the heart interrupts blood flow which provides the brain with energy. The brain can survive a few seconds with negative blood flow (all blood evacuating the head, not just 'still' blood which can provide some sustained sustinance to the brain.

	26-04-2002 21:55									#59
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so it's basically the same... I take it any death that is caused by an interrupt of the brain's blood supply wouldn't go unnoticed by you and even your awareness... I wonder what a feeling that must be, to notice how you're passing out well knowing you're not going to return...

Now what about falling from some great height without too severe head injuries when hitting on the ground... damn, I'm feeling sh!t posting all this explicit crap but I'm seriously wondering about this... I mean, in this very example, does that mean you're full of pain while dying and all that in full awareness?

	26-04-2002 21:58									#60
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yep... anything where the brain is not the first thing to be destroyed means that the brain will 'be aware' of massive damage, which we can interpret in very vague terms for this discussion, as agonizing pain.