26-04-2002 14:41									#1
	Siege engines and Archery Increase Your PM Length

In the course of designing a new medieval tech tree, I need to hear some other opinions on the origins of siege equipment. My tech tree runs from basically 500 AD to 1500 AD.

I've decided to include the following weapons/siege equipment, as well as a few of the early cannon and bombard siege artillery.

-ballista (generally considered a large crossbow-type of artillery)
-catapult/mangonel (string-torsion powered stone-thrower, primarily aimed at walls)
-siege tower (archer-protected leveling of the walls)
-battering ram (to break down part of walls)
-trebuchet (great counterweight operated sling-type catapult)

The story of the trebuchet is pretty well covered. The crusaders apparently found new inspiration for siegecraft among the arabs, which they applied to the trebuchet back in europe. The trebuchet seems to have been the most precise and most destructive of the medieval siege weapons, capable of causing destruction not just to walls or towers, but to target areas behind the walls as well.

Archery is without doubt a key weapon in medieval warfare. Developments in archery influenced the way castles were built, as well as developments in armor and siegecraft, and technologically paved the way for late-medieval gunpowder propelled artillery.

QUESTIONS :

1) Which developments in archery are prerequisites for these siege equipments listed above?

2) Which new developments in archery and other fields did counter the different measures?

For instance, did the ballista come before or after the longbow? Did archery directly influence developments of the torsion powered catapult (mangonel)? Did the crossbow influence the ballista, or is it the other way around?

I know there are many different interpretations, but I'd like to get an impression of what might be the most widely reasonable interpretation. Any input you might have will be most helpful.

Last edited by hardjoy on 26-04-2002 at 15:03

	26-04-2002 18:43									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

take a loo at the tech tree of Cross&Crescent by BeBro, you´ll find it interesting

	26-04-2002 19:08									#3
	Some information. Got spare money?

Try looking at Contamine's War in the Middle Ages. It's a monograph, and so somewhat dense, but I read it a few years back and I'm certain that the information contained therein will answer all these questions.

	26-04-2002 19:10									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well I did, among other things, but didn't feel I got much more enlightened. I have also been surfing much around the internet for pages on the topic, but most sites say something vague and quite not satisfactorily like "inspired by muslim technology" or "crusades" or lists the different types or categories of equipment in great detail, but doesn't give much historical explanation for the different kinds of machinery (say from the early middle ages to late medieval Europe).

Anyone got some cool links on archery or siege warfare?

	26-04-2002 19:26									#5
	Re: Some information. Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Exile Try looking at Contamine's War in the Middle Ages. It's a monograph, and so somewhat dense, but I read it a few years back and I'm certain that the information contained therein will answer all these questions.

OK. Thanx! I'll check that one out.

	26-04-2002 21:00									#6
	Re: Siege engines and Archery Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by hardjoy In the course of designing a new medieval tech tree, I need to hear some other opinions on the origins of siege equipment. My tech tree runs from basically 500 AD to 1500 AD. I've decided to include the following weapons/siege equipment, as well as a few of the early cannon and bombard siege artillery. -ballista (generally considered a large crossbow-type of artillery) -catapult/mangonel (string-torsion powered stone-thrower, primarily aimed at walls) -siege tower (archer-protected leveling of the walls) -battering ram (to break down part of walls) -trebuchet (great counterweight operated sling-type catapult) The story of the trebuchet is pretty well covered. The crusaders apparently found new inspiration for siegecraft among the arabs, which they applied to the trebuchet back in europe. The trebuchet seems to have been the most precise and most destructive of the medieval siege weapons, capable of causing destruction not just to walls or towers, but to target areas behind the walls as well. Archery is without doubt a key weapon in medieval warfare. Developments in archery influenced the way castles were built, as well as developments in armor and siegecraft, and technologically paved the way for late-medieval gunpowder propelled artillery. QUESTIONS : 1) Which developments in archery are prerequisites for these siege equipments listed above? 2) Which new developments in archery and other fields did counter the different measures? For instance, did the ballista come before or after the longbow? Did archery directly influence developments of the torsion powered catapult (mangonel)? Did the crossbow influence the ballista, or is it the other way around?

I think a general problem is that many of those siege engines were not really new in the middle ages, so it is not easy to find "new" techs for them. Ballistas, siege towers, rams and catapults were known in ancient Greek/Roman times, therefore not only the Arabs, but especially the Byzantines were far ahead in constructing such weapons. They were not used very often in central Europe before the 10th century.

It seems that Italian trade cities like Amalfi, Genoa or Venice learned from the Byzantines, their fleets did not only transport crusaders into the holy land, they also helped the crusaders to build siege engines (during the first crusade, this help was also provided by the Byzantines directly).

	26-04-2002 22:55									#7
	Got spare money?

Sounds more and more like a better reasoning for the use of siege equipment in medieval times should be economic/trade wise, or derived from a "crusades" tech or such. -But even the vikings used a "mangonel" according to one source, in the siege of Paris. But then, they may actually have gotten the idea from the same places as the later crusaders, from Byzantium, Venice or the Arabs (via the viking trade routes in the east).

	27-04-2002 01:28									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by hardjoy But even the vikings used a "mangonel" according to one source, in the siege of Paris. But then, they may actually have gotten the idea from the same places as the later crusaders, from Byzantium, Venice or the Arabs (via the viking trade routes in the east).

Yes, it was in the 9th century AFAIK. I read also that they were unable to use them effectively and the siege failed (hope my book is correct here )

The trade idea sounds good, perhaps during the 11th century, the creation of the Norman kingdom in Southern Italy could also play a role, since they were in contact and/or at war then with Arabs, Byzantines and the Italians. You could also give away key techs via events (e.g. first crusade) that allow the research of other techs (those for the more advanced siege weapons).
Simple rams on the other hand should be available quite early.

	27-04-2002 05:51									#9
	Remove this text

Yes, it was in the 9th century AFAIK. I read also that they were unable to use them effectively and the siege failed (hope my book is correct here )

Actually, your book is wrong. Paris was sacked by the Vikings in 853 AD. After the sack, it's importance declined and Orleans became the dominant city in Northern France. Orleans' predominance became strengthened under the Bourbouns when Louis XIV built a great palace in its outskirts following a failed burghers rebellion.

The French Revolution saw Paris decline in importance even more because Napoleon's Last Stand at the end of his Hundred Days was fought in its streets and the Duke of Wellington had to burn down most of the city.

In the Great War, the village of Paris was the where Ludendorf's last great offensive petered out and the French capital remained unviolated. As you all know, Germany had to return Lorraine and Luxembourg to France; Alsace was declared a free area and the plebiscite there kept it in German hands.

Along with the rest of France north of the Loire, Paris was taken by the troops of Chancellor Rommel in the Second Great War and made part of the puppet Normandy that the German Republic set up at the end of the Second Great War.

Just clarifying the point.

	27-04-2002 10:45									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes, vikings successfully sacked Paris in the 850'es, along with a number of other frankish cities like Bordeax, Tours, Blois, Orleans and Poitiers.

But the siege in question (where the use of the mangonel is recorded), took place in 885-86 AD, and rightly failed, mainly because the emperor _Charles the Fat_ were able to send reinforcements. So the siege was raised and the vikings withdrew.

	27-04-2002 10:54									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Can anyone recommend me any good sites on warfare in the Dark Ages (specifically, from the fall of Western Rome to the dissolution of Charlemange's empire)?

Sorry to threadjack hardjoy, but my request was similar enough to yours that I thought they might as well go on the same thread

	27-04-2002 23:36									#12
	These guys have way too much free time Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: 1) Which developments in archery are prerequisites for these siege equipments listed above?

I'm not sure about archery preq's, but the invention of the QWERTY keyboard should be a preq for the trebuchet.... At least according to this photo at Acceleration and Density Testing of Standard PC Keyboards. The authors made their own trebuchet and used it to launch traditional projectiles along with keyboards and water balloons.

Sorry about another threadjack, but I couldn't resist this photo.

	28-04-2002 05:40									#13
	Re: These guys have way too much free time Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Boco I'm not sure about archery preq's, but the invention of the QWERTY keyboard should be a preq for the trebuchet.... At least according to this photo at Acceleration and Density Testing of Standard PC Keyboards. The authors made their own trebuchet and used it to launch traditional projectiles along with keyboards and water balloons.

And of course, you'd better not forget the primary projectille of trebuchets: the Trojan Rabbit!

	28-04-2002 18:02									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This has just gotten plain silly!
Tech trees need to be customized to each scenario, however, perhaps somebody could create a "master tech tree". It would have more techs then the game could use, but designers could use it as a starting point, picking and choosing what makes sense for their scenario. I have a master units file that is pretty much to scale that I often use in this manner. Take a look at what I mean:

Attachment: master units.txt
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	29-04-2002 02:32									#15
	On a more serious note... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No answers, just a few questions:

1) Was mining under walls used extensively before the age of gunpowder?

2) How was military architecture improved to counter the trebuchet? From my limited reading, the best defense against a trebuchet was another trebuchet on higher ground. It sounds like it was the ultimate weapon of it's age.

3) Were concentric castles (e.g. Edward VI's Welsh castles) developed to counter heavy siege engines, or simply to use a small defending force more effectively?

	29-04-2002 13:16									#16
	Re: On a more serious note... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I answered this last night, but when I was about to post it, my connection went bad, and the post was lost.

quote: Originally posted by Boco 1) Was mining under walls used extensively before the age of gunpowder?

Yes. Extensively. Probably the most effective means of breaking the walls down. An attacker simply burnt the wooden structures used to build up the mine. Only trick was to get close enough to the walls to do it without the defending part knowing about it and taking countermeasures.

quote: 2) How was military architecture improved to counter the trebuchet? From my limited reading, the best defense against a trebuchet was another trebuchet on higher ground. It sounds like it was the ultimate weapon of it's age.

Not much, except for rounded walls and towers, for more stable structure, and thicker and deeper walls, to counter bombardments as well as mining. The trebuchet was mostly used much as modern artillery is, to cause enough destruction to demoralize a besieged enemy to surrender, or disable him to fight properly, when the main attack was made.

quote: 3) Were concentric castles (e.g. Edward VI's Welsh castles) developed to counter heavy siege engines, or simply to use a small defending force more effectively?

Yes, I think so, if you mean the rounded walls and towers etc. The additional towers in general provided brilliant defences against an attacker from several sides, even should he succeed to get past the walls. He would then be under fire from several angles at once, including the main tower or keep.