27-04-2002 12:43									#1
	Questions about ruins and caravans Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hello again,
And thankyou all so much for your answers on happiness
I wanted to ask about a couple more things before spending my time hastily away. First, I've noticed that one of these threads (can't remember where it is) might have said something about there being no ruins (CTP2's goodie huts) on the lower levels of play. Is this true? And if so, then for what levels of difficulty?? For example, I would generally try to play at least at average level for Master of Orion 2 since in that video, a player cannot modify their own cool race (and I've had a lot of fun trying to get Silicoids into a Democracy) until they play on average level (race modification does not work at easy and novice levels). Furthermore, I can say from experience that the Antarans are much easier to battle at average level in Master of Orion 2 than at either easy or novice levels. Weird, eh?
My second question was about what function exactly caravans served? In CIV 2, you can use them to transport one unit of (haystack food or shield industry) per turn between cities (making it possible for cities to support eachother in a limited, but sometimes necessary to grow fashion). In CIV 2, you can use caravans to help in the speedy construction of more wonders of the world (and I do tend to use them almost solely for this purpose early on in that game). However, reading the instruction manual for CTP2, I would get the impression that caravans can only be used for establishing trade routes in this game. Is that really true that they only have one possible use in CTP2? Are trade routes more significant a factor in game play for CTP2 or for CIV 2? Just a note: CIV 3 is simply too expensive to buy for me right now and anyway, CTP2 seemed to have many more cool modifications in the computer store than CIV 3 had over CIV 2. I suppose the really supercool modifications are the ones delivered over internet.
I'm wondering what the best strategy for building lots of world wonders early on the game (like Stonehedge) really is. I mean, you need lots of resources for this stuff. Do wonders usually take more time to build in CIV 2 or in CTP2? I'm also wondering if caravans are really better to build than tile improvements (with the same industrial opportunity cost) for both industry and commerce. What is usually the best time in the game (in terms of tech level) to start building caravans and establishing trade routes? When I tried building caravan routes too early on in CIV 2, the profits would usually be too minimal so this is why the question is so relavent.
One feature that I truly adore about CTP2 that is a vast improvement over both CIV 2 and Master of Orion 2 is the new macromanagement options. Tile improvements no longer require hundreds of stupid settlers and nagging engineers. Custom Build Queus should be mentioned more often in these threaded forums because they are just such an awesome convenience revolution! Not even Alpha Centauri has such versatility that CTP2 has in these regards. So I'm glad I purchased CTP2 and if nothing else, it establishes part of what I've been trying to figure out how to express for macromanagement. Now if there could be real corporate republics in which both individuals and corporations had the right to purchase limited jurisdiction over lands. One might have to treat their country well if they expect their country to make them richer.
Master of Orion 2 does have some big advantages over CTP2. For one thing, its a space game, and space civilization-type games are my favorite. Industrial strength can be multiplied by many hundreds of levels stronger (and I think better in this regard than little 10% and 20% mill factory bonuses). Happiness really really matters in Master of Orion 2 as all types of productivity depend (in many interamplifying dimensions) upon citizen morale. Happiness may even be more important in Master of Orion 2 than in CIV 2 (unless you use a Unification GOV. type in Master of Orion 2 in which case happiness means nothing, even less than in CTP2). They will soon come out with Master of Orion 3 and wouldn't it be great if that spacegame could employ some of the same macromanagement abilities as CTP2? Maybe they'll even figure out a better way to decentralize ship selection when you have over a hundred doomstars (which I calculated is possible). Well, it doesn't matter too much since these videos are all too expensive until after having been on the market for at least a couple of years (to fall from $50 to $20 or less). Let me ask you this final question: Is the wait worth the savings or not?

	29-04-2002 01:59									#2
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1. Goodie huts do not appear in the first two levels of the game (Imaginativly titled "Beginner" and ""Easy" I think, and sometimes referred to as "Chieftain" and "Warlord" by those of use who played Civ/2)

2. Caravans are simply used to set up trade routes. Once you have a certain number of caravans, you can start a route, and rake in the cash.
I never use them.
Wonders, on the other hand, are well worth the investment, IMO. Some, of course, are better than others, but generally, its worth having them, if nothing else, so the AI doesn't.

	29-04-2002 05:14									#3
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Wonders: well, in Cradle, the easiest way to get wonders is to TAKE them from someone who built them, otherwise the AI almost always beats the player to the wonder.

	29-04-2002 21:14									#4
	Re: Questions about ruins and caravans Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by dumbstude Are trade routes more significant a factor in game play for CTP2 or for CIV 2?

Civ2 and CtP2 are two very different games and hard to compare. Since building wonders and such with Caravans is not possible in CtP2 I won't go into that but but in terms of gold income from trade routes I think the Caravans of CtP2 are more important. You can get a *LOT* of gold from trade routes, in the original game even more so than in the modded game but even in the modded game many of my cities collect little to no gold (almost everything is spent on science) while I still make a good profit every turn, thanks to my trade routes. I usually earn many hundreds, even thousands of Gold credits from trade every turn. I'm always amazed to hear about how IW never uses trade at all, makes me curious about how well he plays...

quote: I'm wondering what the best strategy for building lots of world wonders early on the game (like Stonehedge) really is. I mean, you need lots of resources for this stuff. Do wonders usually take more time to build in CIV 2 or in CTP2? I'm also wondering if caravans are really better to build than tile improvements (with the same industrial opportunity cost) for both industry and commerce. What is usually the best time in the game (in terms of tech level) to start building caravans and establishing trade routes? When I tried building caravan routes too early on in CIV 2, the profits would usually be too minimal so this is why the question is so relavent.

Again, a comparison with Civ2 is hard to make since these are two completely different games and I myself don't rely too heavily on wonders (like Hermann points out, the AI usually builds them before me anyway and conquest is an easier way of acquiring them). The most important way in which Caravans help with wonders in CtP2 is by allowing you to rush-buy wonders. For this purpose it's of course best to build as many Caravans as possible as soon as possible but tile improvements (specifically Mines) are IMHO still a more important way to speed up wonder production. The best strategy for getting wonders early is to build a city in/near a mountain range early, use farmers to get it to size 8 or so ASAP (exact size needed depends on many factors, but in the early game size 8 often works nicely) and spend all PW on building mines around that city. Then choose a wonder to build, convert all farmers to workers, maximize the workday and set PW to 0% (maybe 10% if you really need PW elsewhere). In the mean-time, build expensive units in other cities and disband them in the city where the wonder is being built (so that a portion of the production cost to build the unit goes to the wonder) and maximize gold income so you can rush-buy early.

quote: Master of Orion 2 does have some big advantages over CTP2. For one thing, its a space game, and space civilization-type games are my favorite. Industrial strength can be multiplied by many hundreds of levels stronger (and I think better in this regard than little 10% and 20% mill factory bonuses).

It seems to me that this would very much unbalance the game: the first player to reach the level of technology where a large multiplication of production is possible can by far outproduce the others an pump out units to overrun the rest...

quote: Happiness really really matters in Master of Orion 2 as all types of productivity depend (in many interamplifying dimensions) upon citizen morale. Happiness may even be more important in Master of Orion 2 than in CIV 2 (unless you use a Unification GOV. type in Master of Orion 2 in which case happiness means nothing, even less than in CTP2).

Yeah, unfortunately happiness is something that isn't quite as important as it should be in CtP2, although the modded game at lest partially fixes this. But the situation that you really only have to keep happiness above a certain limit unfortunately still exists, there's no real bonus for making people happier than strictly necessary

quote: Let me ask you this final question: Is the wait worth the savings or not?

I guess that depends on your financial situation. If you have plenty of money, you'll probably get more enjoyment out of buying when the game is still expensive because there will be a large online-community (with most games these communities stay alive for 12-24 months) but if you only have a few bucks to spend every month (like me), games can really never be cheap enough (that's why I'm still grateful beyond words to Activision for sending me a free copy of CtP2)...

	29-04-2002 22:27									#5
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<>

'Round these parts, them's fightin' words, Cowboy.

<>

Eh? At first I thought you meant to say "Civ2" where that's *definitely* the most important early use of Caravans, but CTP2? You just mean for cash, right?

<>

"Too early" is the operative term. In the midgame to late game, Civ2 caravans can give an enormous amount of gold, especially via the Two Continents trading strategy, and other powerful tactics.

I'm finding caravans of dubious or mixed value in Cradle, because my best routes always seem to be pirated. It's really aggravating sometimes when the trade route seems to go out of its way to get into enemy territory or enemy waters.

In the base game, to coin a phrase, "My God How the Money Rolls In!"

	29-04-2002 22:38									#6
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Those brackets don't work Ed, either use &lt and &gt or use other brackets (or proper quotes)

quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard Eh? At first I thought you meant to say "Civ2" where that's *definitely* the most important early use of Caravans, but CTP2? You just mean for cash, right?

Yes, more Caravans == more cash == more/earlier rush-buying.

quote: "Too early" is the operative term. In the midgame to late game, Civ2 caravans can give an enormous amount of gold, especially via the Two Continents trading strategy, and other powerful tactics.

Must admit I never played an awful lot of Civ2 (Civ1 was better) so I didn't (and still don't) know about the Two Continents thingie. In my experience the amount of gold I got in Civ2 was always very mediocre, but I guess that fact that I was unually unwilling to move my Cavarans all across the globe all the time to maximize profits also played a part there. So for *me* at least trade in CtP2 is far more important than in Civ2, but maybe the true Civ2 experts might disagree...

quote: I'm finding caravans of dubious or mixed value in Cradle, because my best routes always seem to be pirated. It's really aggravating sometimes when the trade route seems to go out of its way to get into enemy territory or enemy waters.

Be very careful in choosing your routes (the most profitable ones aren't always the best ones), have a strong navy/army to guard them and ensure no-piracy pacts through diplomacy. Do all that and it'll work out fine; it does for me anyway...

quote: In the base game, to coin a phrase, "My God How the Money Rolls In!"

Yup, a bit too easy there...

	29-04-2002 22:44									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard [[I'm always amazed to hear about how IW never uses trade at all, makes me curious about how well he plays... ]] 'Round these parts, them's fightin' words, Cowboy.

Don't use < > tags, the board reads it as HTML and blanks out the middle

Yeah, I never use trade, maybe I'm an awful player. It just seems to me that in CtP2, rather than Civ2, the investment of caravans (at least 3 needed, usually ~6-7) for one route, which maybe generates 50 gold (or commerce?) per turn is not worth it, cos chances are, the AI will pirate your route anyway. What is the point having thousands of gold?
The way I play is to never need to rush-buy, and put all production into commerce improvements, and fast production, so rush-buying isn't needed. It will be interesting to see how this works in the Tourney.

	29-04-2002 22:52									#8
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quote: Must admit I never played an awful lot of Civ2 (Civ1 was better) so I didn't (and still don't) know about the Two Continents thingie. In my experience the amount of gold I got in Civ2 was always very mediocre, but I guess that fact that I was unually unwilling to move my Cavarans all across the globe all the time to maximize profits also played a part there. So for *me* at least trade in CtP2 is far more important than in Civ2, but maybe the true Civ2 experts might disagree...

I think they would. Over and above the gold bonus, which was small, the caravans in Civ2 gave a trade bonus, and a one-time (often huge) research bonus, which was very helpful when playing the harder strategies, like OCC, or, of course, in multi-player.
Not to mention food caravans and wonder-rushing...

	29-04-2002 23:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Yeah, I never use trade, maybe I'm an awful player. It just seems to me that in CtP2, rather than Civ2, the investment of caravans (at least 3 needed, usually ~6-7) for one route, which maybe generates 50 gold (or commerce?) per turn is not worth it, cos chances are, the AI will pirate your route anyway. What is the point having thousands of gold?

One of the reasons why the Unit Updater SLIC is such a good code is that now you have a use for all of that Gold in your RB fund.

Caravans suddenly become very important (in Cradle, at least).

It cost me over 45,000 gold to upgrade my Hoplites/Hypaspists to Legions, and another 23,000 gold to upgrade my Legion Militias to Man-at-Arms Militias. I barely had enough gold both times, and I rarely R.B. too.

Wouldn't of had that gold if I had no routes.

	30-04-2002 00:10									#10
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I rarely rush-buy myself either, only occiasionally when in a wonder race and the opponent is about to win or when at war and short on manpower. When the need is high, rush-buy is *always* good to have as a back-up plan...

But yes, unit upgrading, diplomacy and the occasional wonder rush-buy are expensive hobbies so I try to collect as much gold as reasonably possible (but science is more important and depending on the circumstances sometimes production and/or food as well). It's also good if you can focus on science and production and not worry about gold income from cities (those paychecks for my people every year *do* need to be paid...): the more gold from trade you have, the less needs to be collected from cities, allowing you to focus on other things in terms of specialists and tile imps. So there are plenty of reasons why gold is important, in my game at least...

50 gold per route is a conservative estimage, some routes give more than 200 gold per turn! I'd estimate that the average foreign trade route gives about 120 Gold annually. At 15 trade routes (entirely possible in mid-game), that's almost 2000 Gold every single turn (provided you can keep piracy in check)... But indeed, we'll see how this works out in Tournaments...

	30-04-2002 01:49									#11
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hmmm, having played a few turns with the aim of a diplomatic victory (never done that before), gold is very useful, but even with that, I can't seem to get more than a blank expression from the AIs.

	30-04-2002 03:41									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

What mod? Particularly on Cradle diplo victory isn't easy (first conquer an opponent or two to improve your place in the ranking), but for all mods the diplo tips I wrote a while ago for the MedMod should be helpful, if you haven't read it already...

	30-04-2002 20:01									#13
	Tired of ads?

Default game.
I read it. Is it in the MedMod readmes?

	30-04-2002 20:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus 50 gold per route is a conservative estimage, some routes give more than 200 gold per turn! I'd estimate that the average foreign trade route gives about 120 Gold annually. At 15 trade routes (entirely possible in mid-game), that's almost 2000 Gold every single turn (provided you can keep piracy in check)... But indeed, we'll see how this works out in Tournaments...

How much gold a trade route depends on the lenght of the trade route. Longer trate route means more income, that's also the reason why more valuable trade routes are more threatened by foreign armies. If I remember correctly trade routes on ultra gigantic maps gave me 200 up to 500 gold oer turn. Of course for such long trade routes you need more caravans, I think something between 20 and 30 caravans on these really huge maps.

-Martin

	01-05-2002 17:36									#15
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Ben,
Yes. Although I haven't played the unmodded game in ages (no, haven't had a chance to play the Tournament yet), I think the ideas in there mostly hold true for the unmodded game as well. Give lots of presents often, they'll start liking you eventually... (conquering one or two opponents also helps - improves your position on the power ranking).

	02-05-2002 02:40									#16
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quote: (no, haven't had a chance to play the Tournament yet)

For SHAME! And you, the Instigator!!

quote: I think the ideas in there mostly hold true for the unmodded game as well. Give lots of presents often, they'll start liking you eventually... (conquering one or two opponents also helps - improves your position on the power ranking).

Even more so than for the modded game, where the Frenzied AIs are a bit reluctant to deal with disgusting humans. What tendency to gang up???

	02-05-2002 04:30									#17
	Got spare money?

Heh, I still have 2 weeks!

	05-05-2002 23:38									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ben, that diplomacy you're having difficulties with, that doesn't happen to be for the Tournament game, would it? If so, negotiation with French, Inca and Portuguese won't be easy, they are all Aggressive Imperialists, it takes a *LOT* of patience to even get a non-tresspassing agreement with them, let alone a peace treaty or alliance. With a lot of patience you might be able to get an alliance with one of them, but trying to get all three of them to sign an alliance would be a futile enterprise... (I ended up conquering all three of them myself.)

	06-05-2002 00:02									#19
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French and English in the Tourney, yeah. The english I seemed to be winning over eventually, but the French were just eating my gold for breakfast.