29-04-2002 08:04									#31
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Sikander just about hit the nail on the head.

It can be incredibly frustrating for end users who rely on their computers to do useful things when the demon box goes boom. I can't fault them for not knowing everything about how to make it go again. All I ask them is that they not take the frustration out on me.

	29-04-2002 08:09									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Asher AH, when the problem is what you had: it is most certainly not something to waste your time calling support on. It is one of the classic PEBKAC cases.

It is not PEBKAP if I checked the Help files, tried every key, settings, control panel, right clicking, you name it - the help files were useless - that is my point

	29-04-2002 08:11									#33
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Well in Windows XP, it took me all of 10 seconds to find the helpfile.

Start -> Help and Support
Type in "taskbar position"
Click the first result, "Lock the taskbar into position"
It says:

quote: To lock the taskbar into position Right-click the taskbar, and then click Lock the Taskbar. Notes: When you lock the taskbar into position, it cannot be moved to a new location on the desktop. To move the taskbar to a new location, click Lock the Taskbar again to clear the check mark, and then drag the taskbar to its new location.

	29-04-2002 08:24									#34
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My point precisely - where does it say in that explanation vertical or horizontal? Move to top or bottom of the page? Move from side to bottom or top? Try finding that passage using keywords. It also assumes you know that bar is called a "task bar", as opposed to a "menu bar" or something else. Very badly drafted help instructions right there. Thank you for making my point.

	29-04-2002 08:27									#35
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Jesus Christ. You work for the government?

The menu bar is at the top of the screen, the one that says File and whatnot. The task bar is at the very bottom. Maybe you should buy one of those "Introduction to Windows" books or take the "Tour Windows XP" thing when you start it up. The only reason you don't know those terms is your own laziness. I bet you skipped all the tours and haven't actually read an introduction book...

It's like complaining cars are too hard to use since the manual doesn't tell you to turn the wheel left to turn left, etc.

Do you know how many hundreds of thousands of pages the Windows documenation would be if you had your way? It'd be so verbose people would find it a waste of their time.

	29-04-2002 08:30									#36
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The other point you are proving in spades is that geeks like you, who are the kind of people who write these useless manuals, do not understand or have any patience for user requirements. No wonder the help files are crap.

	29-04-2002 08:33									#37
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You are very mistaken if you think geeks like me write user documentation. Everyone knows interns writes the documentation.

The Windows helpfiles are there and easy to use and comprehensive providing you know the basics already. They simply cannot alias "taskbar position" to "menubar position" "that blue thinige position" "the start thingie position" "the thing with the clock's position" etc. That's simply absurd. It was named the taskbar, as the Windows tour will tell you as will ANY introductary book (which you should obviously invest in). You wanted to change the taskbar position. What do you search for? Taskbar position.

You want millions of pages of documentation and something so verbose it would annoy the hell out of the majority of users to the point of being useless.

Buy a damn book if you need more information. They DO sell those, you know. Or find websites with tutorials.

	29-04-2002 08:39									#38
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Thank you Mr ever cheerful help desk staff

	29-04-2002 08:42									#39
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Perhaps you can start complaining that your keyboard didn't come with enough documentation to tell you which key to press to get which letter.

	29-04-2002 09:25									#41
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We should also provide diagrams to show which mouse button we mean when we say "left mouse button".

As you can see, AH, there's no reasonable place to draw the line on details.

You're just pissed off because you couldn't figure out one of the most basic things in Windows. To change where something is, you left-click on it and drag it around...

	29-04-2002 09:30									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Asher UR, are you really that dense? You CLICK on the taskbar and DRAG it to where you want to go. It simply cannot get much easier than that. So how is this an "easy to use" myth? Are you so pathetic that you troll over the stupidest things now?

Did you see Exhibit A? Of course not.

Did your average user found it easy to do some of the simplest tasks? If not, how can Windows be "easy to use?"

	29-04-2002 09:32									#43
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Asher's help manual would be one line:

"If you don't know how to use this product its YOUR FAULT."

	29-04-2002 09:33									#44
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Windows will be hard to use for the mentally retarded too, doesn't change the fact that it IS easy to use for most people.

	29-04-2002 09:33									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander The problem isn't with the user, it's with the entire idea that a computer can perform even a tiny percentage of it's possible functionality while protecting the user from having to deal with complexity.

That pretty much sums up the problem with this approach.

A computer is a much more complicated device than a car, yet drivers have to go through a learning process before they are allowed to drive by themselves.

	29-04-2002 09:34									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Asher's help manual would be one line: "If you don't know how to use this product its YOUR FAULT."

Comon, you have to admit being so overly verbose on the off-chance that some idiot doesn't know how to move windows/objects around in Windows ( ) is stupid.

If you're THAT pathetic at Windows, take the damn tutorial and stop wasting our time.

You NEED to know what objects are called in Windows if you're going to use the helpfiles effectively. Claiming to not know that it was called the "taskbar" is like using the index of a car instruction book and complaining that you didn't know it was called a "steering wheel".

Basics MUST be assumed to make an effective manual, do not blame your laziness and lack of knowledge of the basics on the documentation.

	29-04-2002 09:35									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger A computer is a much more complicated device than a car, yet drivers have to go through a learning process before they are allowed to drive by themselves.

And there are resources that exist so that someone can go through the learning process with the computer...whether or not they choose to use them is up to them.

	29-04-2002 09:37									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The Windows helpfiles are there and easy to use and comprehensive providing you know the basics already.

So why is the instruction on how to move the taskbar under "Locking the taskbar?" How does the average user knows that's the place to look?

	29-04-2002 09:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger So why is the instruction on how to move the taskbar under "Locking the taskbar?" How does the average user knows that's the place to look?

Because when you search for how to move it, that's what comes up. (what a great concept!)

Obviously the keywords you searched for were in the document.

Please tell me you know how search engines work, UR...

	29-04-2002 09:40									#50
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And at least in my helpfile, the words "taskbar" and "drag" are highlighted so that when you click on them it tells you what they are.

	29-04-2002 09:42									#51
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay37 And there are resources that exist so that someone can go through the learning process with the computer...whether or not they choose to use them is up to them.

Same old, same old, blame the user defense.

	29-04-2002 09:42									#52
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What this thread has degenerated into is:
AH is trying to defend a rather blatant brainlapse.
UR is trying to slander MS and MS' products without an informed basis.

Last edited by Asher on 29-04-2002 at 09:50

	29-04-2002 09:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Same old, same old, blame the user defense.

I would be absolutelly THRILLED to hear your solution.
How do you think AH's problem should be fixed in the future?

Do you want them to alias every possible keyword (even though it'd be incorrect) to this article for all words describing the taskbar?

This should be interesting. I want a good summary of your solution. If you don't have one, admit you've got no idea what you're saying and go away.

	29-04-2002 09:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Asher ... or the people who ask about postage rates on e-mail.

This isn't something to joke about over here right now.
Australia Post is trying to grab a piece of that pie by requesting a surcharge on every piece of e-mail sent.

	29-04-2002 09:45									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What this thread has degenerated into is: AH is trying to defend a rather blatant brainlapse. UR is trying to slander MS and MS' products without a misinformed basis.

You are absolutely correct. I am without a misinformed basis. I call a spade a spade.

	29-04-2002 09:45									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What this thread has degenerated into is: AH is trying to defend a rather blatant brainlapse. UR is trying to slander MS and MS' products without a misinformed basis.

And Asher is defending Microsoft - which is like backing a sure loser

	29-04-2002 09:48									#57
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I'm not defending Microsoft, I'm defending the sanity of software developers around the world.

What you're proposing is unreasonable, stupid, and would make using helpfiles far more annoying than they currently are.

	29-04-2002 09:48									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I would be absolutelly THRILLED to hear your solution. How do you think AH's problem should be fixed in the future?

The solution is to use common sense.

For example, fix the goddamn taskbar at the bottom of the screen so it can't be moved. That saves users lots of headaches with no loss in utility.

It also helps to reduce the number of useless features so they don't confuse users.

	29-04-2002 09:50									#59
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It would be better if the default were that the Task Bar was locked.

	29-04-2002 09:51									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm not defending Microsoft, I'm defending the sanity of software developers around the world.

Hey don't act like you've been caught in the headlights of my speeding car.

You are defending Microsoft. That makes you a LOSER