29-04-2002 08:01									#1
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I had gotten good at ignoring our favorite lady here in the Apolyton Civ3 forums. However, this time I was un poco loco - Her entire set of 'facts' seemed to have been completely made up. Armed with truth and vehemence, I researched what I did not already know for certain. See the one-sided match

HERE

I calmed down and posted civilly after AofA (Chris62) threatened bans - but the slap-up was complete.

	29-04-2002 11:48									#2
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Unfortunately she's not gonna learn. She's been proven wrong many times in the past, but she rests for a while and comes back for more and more. Either she's got masochistic tendencies or, as I pointed out elsewhere, is the subject of a behavioral experiment on human stupidity. What makes me laugh is that despite she paying no concern at all about hurting the feelings of others, now she gets offended when someone responds to her provocations the way her stubborness deserves.

Last edited by Jay Bee on 29-04-2002 at 14:58

	29-04-2002 12:18									#3
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A really unbalanced discussion. I don´t know what she had about the iroquis, but I´ve heard her the argument "iroquis invented democracy" many many times. She looks like member of a sect. About her 2nd obsession, Spain, I guess there are many spanish people around much more radical in their defense of the spanish "black legend".
I like civfanatics´moderator behaviour about not to allow nasty political discussion, but his "this is not apolyton" sounds a little despective.

	29-04-2002 13:37									#4
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It is funnier one called "British Empire, forced to be good" or something like that, it is very interesting when a Hungarian and a Hindi guys started to critise English Empire, specially I like one post where said "10 million on hindis died in the starve of 1899 caused by English policy" and Enlgish started to defend themselves saying that were usual this things in Empire or that worse were Spanish, French or Protuguese Empires...

	29-04-2002 14:15									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Alfonsus71 "this is not apolyton" sounds a little despective.

No, he's making it clear that trolling, flaming, distorting facts and all that crap that frequently and unfortunately surfaces in here, is not allowed in CFC. I wish the same policy was implemented here, at least in certain cases.

Kindal, last week there was a thread on that here in the off-topic forum. The Brits were gentlemen, the Spanish monsters. There's nothing you can do to change their minds. Better not even try.

	29-04-2002 17:15									#6
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quote: The Dutch and the Iroquois were main trading partners in the 17th century. One might even say they propelled each other into their Golden Age.

Now we explain the Iroquois fetish!

	29-04-2002 18:45									#7
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I'm not sure about her fetishes (neuroses?), but one thing strikes me as odd - I suspect she is not even dutch. Two reasons:

1) She is very pro-dutch. In the linked thread, note willemvanoranje. If someone says the dutch did something good, he points out the dark side of that event. That is typically dutch - they are not blindly proud of Holland, they do not boast of Holland's greatness. They are as quick to bring themselves down as any other nation.

2) Her north american english is perfect. Maybe she's bilingual (there are many dutch-canadians), but hers is not the language used by a native dutch speaker.

In any case, I support the label TROLL for her. I'm glad you enjoyed reading the exchange!

	29-04-2002 19:35									#8
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She admitted to being Dutch in that famous infamous thread from Civ3 Civilizations. Her real name (as taken from her homepage) sounds very Dutchie as well.

Re-reading the thread, I am not sure if I really understood her position. Is she maintaining that the Iroquois invented the three-field crop rotation system, and then the Dutch introduced the system in Europe in the XVII c.? I must have gotten something wrong, no one can be that dumb.

	29-04-2002 19:43									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq In any case, I support the label TROLL for her. I'm glad you enjoyed reading the exchange!

Sure we did!

	29-04-2002 21:24									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Alfonsus71 I like civfanatics´moderator behaviour about not to allow nasty political discussion, but his "this is not apolyton" sounds a little despective.

Jay points out my reasoning there, alfonsus.

CFC is not a free-for-all where you can say outragious things just to anger people, I don't allow it in the history forum or the off topic.
Unfortunatly, Apolyton does.

She can take her hate war elsewhere, I won't allow it.

Marquis, I saw absolutly nothing wrong with your posts, you simply refuted her convoluted nonsense.
Jay and I were laughing last night at her claim about crop rotation, which was first used in the middle ages, as being an Iroqouis invention.

The Iroquios were far from being a democracy, had no written language, ect, but all this is wasted on her.
As a people, they are most uninteresting, except as far as there interaction with early American settlers (mostly violent, leading to a number of reprisal raids by the Europeans), but firaxis put them in civ-3 anyway, oh well.

My friend Willem doesn't believe she's dutch, he told me privatly that nothing she says remotly resembles history as taught in the Netherlands, nor does it resemble history anywhere else for that matter.

The girl is a fool, there is no other way to say it.

But she won't be getting away with that foolishness at CFC, that I can promise.

	29-04-2002 22:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Is she maintaining that the Iroquois invented the three-field crop rotation system?

Almost - the "3 sisters" ag system is the interplanting (not rotation) of maize, beans, and squash in small mounds. The maize grows tall quickly; the beans climb the stalk; the squash roll into the low spots between mounds - the beans fix nitrogen in the soil while the others draw it out. With a fish as fertilizer, the ground never gets depleted of nutrients. Rather ingenious system, really - one that was developed in southern mexico more than 5000 years ago. O well, facts are not very useful to some people...

Chris62, I'm glad you won't tolerate that hooey in the forum. Maybe she will get scared back to the Civ3 forum. I doubt she'll actually start posting anything of real merit any time soon.

	29-04-2002 22:56									#12
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I really enjoyed reading the exchange, Marquis.

	29-04-2002 23:12									#13
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About the Gibraltariana not being Dutch, I have yet to find a Dutchman on these forums who's not friendly and corteous with the opinions of others. IMHO the Dutch are, by far and large, the most respectful people I've met in all these years. I just thought of bananah as the inevitable bad apple. Maybe you're right and she's just pretending to be what she's not. After all, don't we already have that little spanish-wanna-be in off-topic? Hmm, what was his name...

	29-04-2002 23:30									#14
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Actually, during the agricultural revolution in the early 1700s a new mode of crop rotations was used... I studied this in History, the guy who introduced it in England was Marquis Townsend after travelling through Holland, so it may well be. It was an important improvement over the open field system used till that point basically because no field was left fallow.

	29-04-2002 23:53									#15
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Marquis, you are my new hero!

	29-04-2002 23:53									#16
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence ... the guy who introduced it in England was Marquis Townsend

We marquis are a very important lot!

	29-04-2002 23:55									#17
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Marquis, you are my new hero!

Psst, perhaps yaroslav is spending too much time in front of his computer...

	29-04-2002 23:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq We marquis are a very important lot!

	29-04-2002 23:58									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Psst, perhaps yaroslav is spending too much time in front of his computer...

I? I only hook on Internte one day of two... Perphas I'm who spend less time

But if you regret my admiration...

	30-04-2002 00:19									#20
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ElAwr, no one has ever denied the importance of Holland as the nation that pioneered the Agricultural Revolution. But, as I understand it, Miss defends the theory that the Dutch advances that facilitated the agricultural revolution were 'borrowed' from the Iroquois....

	30-04-2002 02:17									#21
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Well, I can't say they weren't, but I can say that the Dutch pioneered into new crop rotation techniques in Europe.

	30-04-2002 02:27									#22
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he he, that's the same I've said.

	30-04-2002 07:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav But if you regret my admiration...

No regret at all!

Of course, if I wasn't happy with tossing a cream pie in la Gibraltariana's face, I would never have started this thread. Seeing how everybody enjoyed it is very

	30-04-2002 11:47									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 CFC is not a free-for-all where you can say outragious things just to anger people, I don't allow it in the history forum or the off topic. Unfortunatly, Apolyton does.

Totally agree. I would vote you as apolyton moderator if this were as democratic as the iroqueses were supposed to be. .
I really hate that some people post non civ topics, or when a civ discussion (generally about what civs should be in and out) becomes a political discussion. Of couse, I wouldn´t also allow football discussion .

	30-04-2002 11:59									#25
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alfonsus, keep posting anti-soccer statements in this forum and will end up being burnt at the stake

	30-04-2002 13:01									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee alfonsus, keep posting anti-soccer statements in this forum and will end up being burnt at the stake

Well, Genious are allways burnt at the stake, with the possible exception of Kiko Narváez, .

	30-04-2002 22:35									#27
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If genius is a prereq for being burned at the stake, our heroine should feel safe. I searched the internet for about 2 minutes, and believe I have found the source of la Gibraltariana's vast knowledge of the iroquois:

Carnegie Museums site

Everything she has brought up in the Civfanatics thread is there.

	01-05-2002 04:22									#28
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That last exchange between you and Miss had me laughing for a good while Note from her last post that she hasn't changed her stance even a little bit. But everyone expected that.

PS. Very good your comment on internet vs library. That's something that me and others have tried to explain to her in the past. To no avail, of course.

	01-05-2002 04:32									#29
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Oh, I found out a few weeks ago that some of her anti-spanish flames appear to have been 'borrowed' from a certain WASP supremacy page. Of course it may be just a coincidence. In that case, one must conclude that not only great minds think alike, dumb minds do it too.

Last edited by Jay Bee on 01-05-2002 at 04:47

	01-05-2002 17:56									#30
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She certainly is an odd character. One wonders just how she debated topics before the internet? (maybe she's too young, I don't know) In any case, I can now go back to ignoring her for a while.