29-04-2002 10:36									#1
	What happened to my stealth aircraft? Enter the AD-FREE zone

In the latest patch 1.21f it seems that the stealth aircraft are useless. The stealth bomber no longer has precision bombing. Now it's just a long range bomber.

I can't remember if the stealth fighter had precision bombing before or not, but the stealth fighter can't do air superiority missions. So I have to ask, what good is a stealth fighter? It has the same range as a conventional fighter and it stinks on bombing missions.

	29-04-2002 10:40									#2
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Looking at my civ3mod, both stealth aircraft have precision bombing. It's bizarre why the fighter doesn't have intercept, though.

	29-04-2002 10:43									#3
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The fighter doesn't have intercept?!

	29-04-2002 10:44									#4
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I think I'll do that, thanks ixnay37.

	29-04-2002 10:46									#5
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No, for some reason only the fighter, jet fighter, and F-15 have air intercept checked. So basically the stealth fighter is a cheaper, weaker stealth bomber.

Last edited by ixnay on 29-04-2002 at 10:51

	29-04-2002 10:46									#6
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the stealth fighter never had intercept, this is not new, also it is based on the real stealth fighter f-117 which isn't a fighter either, but is instead a light bomber, the only good thing about a stealth fighter is that it has a 5% chance of being intercepted instead of a 50% chance, so that means its can penetrate heavily defended air space...

is that of great value?
possibly

are air units in civ3 underpowered
totally

	29-04-2002 10:49									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Grrr The fighter doesn't have intercept?!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you heard right. No air superiority.

I installed the patch and started a new game using the Aztecs. Everything was going well, except for the govenors ignoring my requests for no more workers, until I researched stealth. Then I find out my stealth fighters don't have the air superiority option and my stealth bombers don't have precision bombing. Not to sound like a broken record or anything.

	29-04-2002 10:51									#8
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korn469, the stealth fighter used to have precision bombing though, right?

	29-04-2002 10:52									#9
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It still does, apparently.

	29-04-2002 10:54									#10
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Moses

yeap it used to have p strike and afaik it still does

	29-04-2002 10:55									#11
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I think I have a saved game. I'll check and if so I will attach one in a few minutes.

	29-04-2002 10:59									#12
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I've never even seen stealth technology in my games yet. Never seen radar artillery either come to think of it. Yet I've won the space race repeatedly. Strange.

	29-04-2002 11:03									#13
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Moses

here is a stupid, stupid question

but you have discovered smart weapons in your game right? p-strike isn't available till you do, otherwise, if you haven't modded anything i'm not sure

	29-04-2002 11:08									#14
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korn469: DOH! I hadn't discovered smart weapons. Well, that's why I asked the experts.

My apologies all.

	29-04-2002 11:16									#15
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Moses

no problem at all

	29-04-2002 17:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 the stealth fighter never had intercept, this is not new, also it is based on the real stealth fighter f-117 which isn't a fighter either, but is instead a light bomber,

While it's role so far in military missions has been that of a bomber, the F-117 is quite a capable dogfighting aircraft as well. It is simply a case of the F-15, F-14 and F-18 being just as good (or better) and cheaper to keep in the air than the F-117. So the older fighters still get the Air Superiority missions. Keep in mind that the F-117 is designed for modern dogfighting. It has no guns, only missile armaments.

The F-117 should be able to do Air Superiority. I never noticed it couldn't. I shall be changing that in the editor when I get home from work tonight.

	29-04-2002 19:11									#17
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Let us know how stealth fighter supremacy works. As it is now the only value for stealth fighter is recon, and then the jet is better as it will switch to AS after recon.

As a variant, edit the stealth bomber to be hidden nationality, ala privateer. You can have a prewar and then the war. Of course, if you suddenly get a few mysterious hits, an AI has discovered the same feature. But they won't focus on using SB for resource limitation the way a human will.

Since fixaxis won't change manhattan to be small wonder, one strategy is to use hidden SB to remove access to UR and AL with a city ready to pump out manhattan in 8 turns if desired. That way you can have nukes and keep them from everyone, or at least most everyone. Usually one other civ will have a source you missed, but better to play with 2 nuclear powers than 16.

	29-04-2002 19:25									#18
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M Bison: Where did you get the information that the F-117 was "quite a capable dogfighting aircraft?" That conflicts with all the info I've ever been able to dig up on the plane (which isn't much, admittedly).

	29-04-2002 19:50									#19
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quote: Originally posted by M Bison Keep in mind that the F-117 is designed for modern dogfighting. It has no guns, only missile armaments.

Well, a plane without guns can't be that great of a dogfighter. I know that modern planes don't use guns very often, but they are absolutely necessary to be a true fighter plane.

The F-4 pilots in Vietnam stopped using their guns (according to the movie Top Gun ..."During Vietnam our kill ratio fell to 3 to 1, our pilots became dependant upon missiles") so they lost effectiveness against faster, more manuverable aircraft. With proper countermeasures and a skilled pilot, an F-15 would shoot down an F-117 without much difficulty (assuming he knows where it is ). My opinion, of course.

	29-04-2002 19:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall As a variant, edit the stealth bomber to be hidden nationality, ala privateer. You can have a prewar and then the war. Of course, if you suddenly get a few mysterious hits, an AI has discovered the same feature. But they won't focus on using SB for resource limitation the way a human will.

That is a very cool idea. Very cool indeed.

	29-04-2002 19:55									#21
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dunk999: Certainly just about everything that the NVA flew against the F-4 was more manuverable, I doubt they had anything that was faster. It wasn't just dependence on missiles, but the McNamara Defense Department really didn't believe it was important to train troops, pilots, sailors, etc. That's why schools like Red Flag and Top Gun got started, to give US Pilots experience in Air Combat, whether with guns or missiles.

Prior to Vietnam, all of the talking heads believed that a fighter would take off, climb to altitude, turn on it's radar, see a blip, press a button, and a missile would eliminate the blip. Turned out to be not that way....

	29-04-2002 20:04									#22
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dac... I think depending upon missiles is a sign of poor training. I just wanted to quote the movie.

	29-04-2002 20:37									#23
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M Bison

take a look at this site, apparently the F-117 doesn't carry air to air missiles which would hinder it's air supiority role a bit don't you think?
especially when you consider it is relatively slow

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-117.htm

i think you are thinking of the f-22 raptor

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-22.htm

	29-04-2002 20:48									#24
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Korn469 is right. AFAIK the F-117 is not and has never been an air-superiority aircraft. Its waaaaaay too slow and does not have the required maneuverability to survive.

	29-04-2002 21:00									#25
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i remember watching this thing on the history channel, and originally the f-117 was painted a camoflage color, but the general in charge of the program ordered them painted black, not because it would help them operate at night better (actually the camo paint scheme made them harder to see at night) but because he didn't want anyone to get any ideas about using them during the day

also even if you did give the stealth fighter the intercept ability in civ3, that wouldn't improve it's chances of winning, and using lots of stealth aircraft actually reduces the chances of having civ3 dogfights...as a mod maker the thing that works best at simulating dog fights is to make attack and defense strengths for air intercept units to be the same and then to have the chance to intercept air units set really high (i have it set at 90% in my mod)