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Ilkuul
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of Thame (UK)
Mar 2000
time: 05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Roman on 04-21-2001 07:48 PM
I think democracy is already unbalanced as it is due to the ability to WLTPD cities to large sizes very rapidly. Adding more advantages or getting rid of disadvantages would unbalance the situation even further.
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I see where you're coming from Roman, but I think that's a much higher level of gameplay than most ordinary folk who might be buying the game for the first time and just wanting to enjoy it. I know this from my own experience: until a year or so ago I avoided Democracy like the plague, for exactly this reason, that it seemed to make any kind of warfare (defensive as well as offensive) difficult to the point of impossibility. Only since I started browsing these forums and discovered things like OCC have I begun to realise how Democracy can be exploited in the way you describe.
quote:
Of course, in reality a government of national unity was formed in Britain both during WWI (in the middle of the war) and during WWII (soon after the start of the war)... In civ 3, I would support making it far more difficult to change governments to force players to choose more carefully what government they really want to run.
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I wouldn't want to treat a "government of national unity" as a separate govt. type, like Republic, Communism, etc. I would regard it merely as a temporary modification of the rules governing Democracy. So I fully agree with you that it should be more difficult to change govt. types! I think it's totally unrealistic to have the AI continually swapping between Monarchy and Democracy depending on whether it needs to wage war or not! It's partly for that reason that I'm proposing GoNU(!) - again, as a temporary modification of Democracy during an all-out war.
To satisfy the top-flight players, GoNU could be offered much less often at the higher difficulty levels (to vanishing point in Deity, or its equivalent); and of course, it would always be open to a player to refuse it when it is offered!
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Stuff2
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Ikuul. Democracies are not that bad for warfare if you only are big enough (and that's easy to acheive in a democracy). A big city with a police station and a high luxury rate can support maybe 10 - 12 units on the field without going into disorder, not too mention the giant production boost that makes it possible for you too spit out new units. With 20 howitzers, some tanks, some defence units and some spies you can wipe any civ you want in a matter of a few turns. You are immune to any kind of bribery. If you got the 'UN' and the 'Women suffrage' democracy is the ultimate choice even in warfare. If you are big enough switch to democracy and you'll quckly get so much bigger and stronger. My point is, up to a certian point democracy is hard to manage but after you have built enough happiness and economic improvements it will be the most beneficial choice even during warfare. Sure democracy in civ2 is unbalanced.
However I agree that signing peacetreaties behind your back is silly. I don't know if it ever has happened in real life. I've never heard of it, unless during a revolt within your own government. You may get happiness penalties and other kind of problems during democracy but peacetreaties should never be signed by anyone but you.
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airdrik
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Nampa, ID, USA
Oct 2000
time: 22:12
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In civ 2, if the enemy civ is the origonal offender, then doesn't your senate side with you if you decide to take offencive?
My idea would be that the senate doesn't interfere if either 1) the other civ attacked you first, or 2) you and the other civ hate each other's guts.
In the first case, that gives you all the reason to retaliate, but there should be a limit of some sort which is not too restrictive (ie. one city is too restrictive), but not too leanient. In the second case, there would be less restrictions because your senate hates them just as much as you do, and thus sees no wrong in removing them.
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SerapisIV
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Hartford, CT, USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:12
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Nice thoughts airdrik, I like the idea of the Senate having real-life motivations, as in revenge on an attacker (Dec 8/9 1941, Congress had only one "nay" vote for war, and that was only symbolic) and give much more leeway.
For your second case, how about having your culture tied to why you and another civ hate each other...maybe as the top two cultured civs, a rivalry. Also along those lines, if not culture, how would you know who the computer thinks you hate? The compute can't know how pissed I get when the AI starts planting cities right where I was about and therefore declare eternal animosity (thats why leader personalities are great, I have someone against whom to fight, not just the light blue civ)
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Ilkuul
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of Thame (UK)
Mar 2000
time: 05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Stuff2 on 04-23-2001 10:40 AM
Democracies are not that bad for warfare if you only are big enough (and that's easy to acheive in a democracy).
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Yes, I know that now (after browsing these forums for a year!), but I guess I'm making a plea here for the "little guy", the non-expert, who loves civ but isn't able to spend months at it searching out all its secrets. I was one of those "little guys" for many years, as I said in an earlier post, and I don't think I was particularly stupid or anything, 'cos there was a group of us (the others at least were pretty bright!) who used to play multiplayer from time to time, and we were all very much at the same level, and all found democracy hard to cope with when we were at war. It only takes one city to fall into disorder through absent units, and your government collapses - with who knows how many turns to wait before you get a chance to re-establish it! We all found this very discouraging - and that's my point: at the lower difficulty levels at least, you don't want to be constantly discouraging new players.
So, yes, I like airdrik and Serapis's suggestions about limiting the Senate's tendency to override you; but I would also like to see something at the lower difficulty levels to mitigate unhappiness when a Democracy is at war. The "Govt. of National Unity" idea was just one possibility that appealed to me - but maybe there would be other ways to achieve the same result...
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:12
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To me, the whole idea sounds very much like a war-based government form like Fundamentalism in CIV2...
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Ilkuul
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of Thame (UK)
Mar 2000
time: 05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by airdrik:
Actually, in civ 2 you could just wait until an Oedo year (look it up in the civ 2 Great Library, they occor every 4 years), then switch to whatever government you want INSTANTANIOUSLY (if you have SOL, all years are Oedo years  )...
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Right, I know about Oedo years, but that's exactly the kind of unreality I was trying to avoid! (Imagine the chaos if the US had tried to switch to Communism or - heaven forbid - Monarchy when the Vietnam war became unpopular!!)
quote:
Originally posted by Ecthelion:
To me, the whole idea sounds very much like a war-based government form like Fundamentalism in CIV2...
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No, no, no! That wasn't at all my idea re a 'govt. of national unity': There would still be unhappiness caused by absent units, though reduced, and production would be less; but the tech rate would remain unchanged. It would only be for a limited period, more at the AI's discretion than the player's. However Serapis's propaganda idea might be a better way to achieve this, if the SMAC mechanism for applying it (however that works!) is incorporated into Civ3...
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22-04-2001 02:57
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