29-04-2002 21:55									#1
	Canal building Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

When you build a city on a thin strip of land all of YOUR sea units can pss through it. I think a new worker action would be cool. Build Canal. If the strip of land is less then 3 squares you can build a canal. To make life more difficult/more realistic you might have to wait for one of two things. Enginering ( hey it lets you build forests and bridges why not canals) or for a small wonder called Panama Canal ( Which would be avaiable after you learned enginering. Just like roads the AI wouldnt be able to use the canal unless they had a ROP with me. Right now I just gain control of all the 1 square blocks I can find , and I build cities on them ( Like in Marlas World Map I always take control of Panama). Thats unfair to the rest of the civs. Also I think if I have a ROP I should be able to go through the AI cities instead of around. You would never be in it , your unit would gain a speed bonus in the city and always end up outside it after the turn is over.

	30-04-2002 00:17									#2
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I like the canal idea. They should also allow one water space Tunnels (Like the English Channel, and the one between the islands in Japan). Also 2 types of rivers 1) normal river 2) larger rivers that can handle ships.

I can live without these but they would make nice additions

	30-04-2002 01:05									#3
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I have always liked the canal idea, and brought it forth from a year before Civ III was even released. It would be difficult to implement, but it is possible.

As for Panama Canal, engineering is a little early, it wasn't built in the middle ages, you know.

	30-04-2002 01:10									#4
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Canals is a damn good idea

No more of those build-crap-city-just-to-get-acess-to-ocean-thingies...

But then I always play islands, so I donīt really have a problem with this

	30-04-2002 02:56									#5
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Yeah this idea is exactly ten years old (AD 1992 )and it's a good question, why those firaxiens weren't able to implement it.

but then: this question could be asked for every little byte of this game, so it's not worth the wind.

And you can be 100% sure: it won't be in any civ game unless you program your own civ game. Which maybe would be the best idea anyway...

If the people of apolyton or any other fansite had made civ3, wow, that would have been the most impressing game ever released.

well, dreams...

	30-04-2002 04:03									#6
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Lets just hope Firaxis add the canal option to their XP.

You should also be able to build a bridge over coast and sea squares (kinda like a bridge between tightly packed islands on an archipelago only 1-3 spaces apart). Your workers stand on a square of land next to the coast, you hit the "Build Bridge" key (or click its button) and select the direction you want your bridge to go. Within a number of turns, the first part of a suspension bridge is done. It will go one space onto a coast tile. You could then move your worker onto it, and then build the next square, then the next, until you reach the opposite side of the water body. You'd need to discover Steel to allow it, and ships could travel underneath it.

I may be drifting, but the option to build suspension bridges like this would sort of be an equivalent to the canals option. You'd use a lot of canals to get your navy through a small space of land on continents or Pangaea, and your suspension bridges to get ground forces (and workers) from island to island on an archipelago map.

	30-04-2002 04:37									#7
	My thoughts on canals Increase Your PM Length

Canals would actually be fairly easy to do. Here's how I would do them:

They would be built by Workers, and take a long time to build.

They require a fairly advanced tech to construct, something in the Industrial Age (say Industrialisation).

Canal building is restricted as follows:
* Must be on a coastal tile, thus they initially have a maximum length of 2 tiles.
* Cannot be built on hills or mountains.
* Requires Iron and Saltpeter to build (iron for the structures, saltpeter for the explosives).
* Destroys irrigation/mining, and irrigation/mining in that square is no longer possible.

Other notes:
* A later tech advance would remove the restriction of coastal tiles only, enabling the construction of longer canals.
* Counts as coastal tiles for movement
* Moving through a Canal square uses 2 movement points
* Civs with ROP can use canals
* Ships cannot be loaded while they are in a canal

Problems:
* What happens if a canal is destroyed while a ship is in it?
* What happens if a land unit finishes its movement in a canal square?
* If you pillage your own canal square while an AI ship is in that square, is the AI ship destroyed, and is that an act of war?

	30-04-2002 04:47									#8
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I think that there should have been a number of new improvements in civilization that were not implemented... in fact, they actually REMOVED good tile improvements. What happened to the Airbase? Useless in Civ2, vital in Civ3 on island maps.

I think rivers are the great unappreciated terrain element... One, I think there should be bridge tile improvements that are roads constructed on rivers, and these improvements can be destroyed. Now, the trick will be as said before that there should be two varieties of rivers. "Fordable" rivers, inaccessable to ships, and big rivers uncrossable by troops but allowing ships. Bombing a "big" river bridge can bring troop movements to a hault.

Secondly, I think rivers should be another medium for trading, so two cities without roads between them can use rivers to connect them. Good for the early game for the expansionist civilizations who don't have time to lay down the infrastructure.

	30-04-2002 04:49									#9
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I would say a two tile maximum for the entire game would be good. Without this, you could cover the whole map in canals and just use ships.

Another problem would be, what if you build a canal 1 square inland in order attach a coast to your city? What if the canal is destroyed while you are building boats, coastal fortress, etc? Also, what about attaching a canal to build a wonder that requires sea access and then destroying the canal?

Also, you could build mutiple canals on adjacent squares? If so, then can you cross from canal to canal? And how would land units cross canals? Could bombardment destroy a canal? If so then what if a unit is in the canal? How would the ai use canals? Could a land unit fight a sea unit in a canal? What if your borders changed as a result of expansion or city takeover while your unit was in a canal that is now controlled by the enemy?

	30-04-2002 05:11									#10
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The canal idea has been discussed since Civ 2 came out!!

Firaxis ignored all the discussions lasting over five years.

I don't think discussiing it any more will get Firaxis to add this needed task, and there should have also been a Panama (or GREAT) Canal Wonder.

	30-04-2002 05:22									#11
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Two answers:

quote: Originally posted by kimmygibler Another problem would be, what if you build a canal 1 square inland in order attach a coast to your city? What if the canal is destroyed while you are building boats, coastal fortress, etc? Also, what about attaching a canal to build a wonder that requires sea access and then destroying the canal?

You could solve that problem, if you don't allow destroying a canal. I would also limit the building of a canal to a coastal square and only to connect a city to the sea or to cross a 1-tile land bridge. However you would need a bridge (see next quote) to cross the canal with a land unit.

quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II I think rivers are the great unappreciated terrain element... One, I think there should be bridge tile improvements that are roads constructed on rivers, and these improvements can be destroyed. Now, the trick will be as said before that there should be two varieties of rivers. "Fordable" rivers, inaccessable to ships, and big rivers uncrossable by troops but allowing ships. Bombing a "big" river bridge can bring troop movements to a hault. Secondly, I think rivers should be another medium for trading, so two cities without roads between them can use rivers to connect them. Good for the early game for the expansionist civilizations who don't have time to lay down the infrastructure.

I totally agree. Rivers should have much more influence on strategy than they have now. The bridge building and the "trading-along-rivers" idea reflects that perfectly.

	30-04-2002 05:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle The canal idea has been discussed since Civ 2 came out!! Firaxis ignored all the discussions lasting over five years.

I'm amazed that I agree with you that canals are a good idea...

But I'm even more amazed at your apparent psychic abilities to know that Firaxis ignored the fans when it's equally possible that they decided against the feature with a conscious choice.

	30-04-2002 05:38									#13
	Put an end to popups!

IIRC, the Grand Canal was originally in civ3, but they took it out (and modified the great wall, which was originally an actual wall on the map) for gameplay reasons.

	30-04-2002 06:29									#14
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 But I'm even more amazed at your apparent psychic abilities to know that Firaxis ignored the fans when it's equally possible that they decided against the feature with a conscious choice.

What I find amusing about Coracle is that he claims that firaxis completely ignored the gaming community while at the same time constantly whines about Culture, which was one of the suggestions by the community, IIRC.

	30-04-2002 06:33									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh, I agree that canal building would be a cool feature, I'm just not sure how it would be implemented. I like star mouse's worker suggestion, which would probably indicate more of a move towards SMAX's 3d terrain/ terraform options, which woudln't be that bad of a thing for me.

'Like in Marlas World Map I always take control of Panama). Thats unfair to the rest of the civs."

I think that is great, a race to control a key spot of land. If there was a way for allies to move through your city (there isn't, is there?) it would be even better.

	30-04-2002 06:54									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I would like to see the abilty to cross three tiles with a canal more then two , but I could live with two, heck I would be delighted with the abilty to do it to a one square piece of land.

I would say the canal could be rendered useless , but would not be destroyed. In real life it would take longer to fill a canal then to make one so this would make sense. You would in essence fill in enough to stop it from working. Ships already in the tile would be allowed to finish their route unharmed.

I would say that land units could not fight sea units in the canal. I like the bridge idea , so if bridges and canals were implemented then you would have to build a small bridge over the canal to get over it.

The canal would be just like roads , people with whom you have ROP with can use them , but people who you dont have ROPs with cant. If that land was taken from me it would be the property of the AI who took it. If they destroyed my city near it , then it would be available to all units ( Water units of course).

	30-04-2002 07:14									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Just use your formers to lower the terrain.

Oh, wait, terrain elevation wasn't included in *this* game...

	30-04-2002 07:23									#18
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quote: Originally posted by dawidge Just use your formers to lower the terrain. Oh, wait, terrain elevation wasn't included in *this* game...

OK, lets not get into that. The SMAC forum is elsewhere on this site.

	30-04-2002 07:38									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

"And how would land units cross canals? Could bombardment destroy a canal? If so then what if a unit is in the canal? Could a land unit fight a sea unit in a canal? What if your borders changed as a result of expansion or city takeover while your unit was in a canal that is now controlled by the enemy?"

Yes, land units should be able to cross a canal. Canals should be very vulnerable to bombardment, destroying ships in them if they are destroyed. A sea unit should be helpless in the canal, with a defense of 0, so if it is attacked it should just be destroyed. Same for if you lose control, you ship should sink. Using canals should be risky, so you can choose whether you want to risk it or take longer to get there.

	30-04-2002 07:52									#20
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quote: Originally posted by simwiz2 A sea unit should be helpless in the canal, with a defense of 0, so if it is attacked it should just be destroyed. Same for if you lose control, you ship should sink.

And a ship sunk in a canal would destroy the canal until a worker could clean it up. Canals are narrow and shallow and easily plugged with a swamped vessel.

	30-04-2002 07:55									#21
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Thats right lets not focus on the fact that you could terraform in SMAC. We must not make the choir boys uncomfortable. We must pretend that Civ3 is something other than "one small step for Soren, one giant leap backward for civilization"

	30-04-2002 08:05									#22
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Has anybody ever tried placing a "chain" of cities across a continent to act as a makeshift canal? I wonder if it will work? I don't see any real value in it, but maybe someone else would.

	30-04-2002 09:00									#23
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I did it in Civ II, but Civ III doesn't have enough lakes.

	30-04-2002 20:10									#24
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How about a new type of "road"? Workers could built this with a high time cost. On this "canal road" ships could pass as is it were a canal with one less than normal movement point. If part of the canal gets destroyed, the ship is stuck.

	30-04-2002 21:50									#25
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I agree with Dom Pedro about 2 classes of rivers. One would be the current type that would represent fairly narrow rivers. And a new type of water tile that was uncrossable except via bridge. (i used shallow water and bridges in CTP2).

Kinda off topic but heavy vehicles should only be able to cross existing rivers at roads. Assumption being no road, no bridge and even a 50 yard wide/10 foot deep river would flood out the typical tank (yes, I know that modern tanks have some "swim" capabilities)

	30-04-2002 22:55									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

didn't SMAC have canals? Or at least it allowed you to lower land, and voila! you have a canal.

	30-04-2002 23:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by The Rook Has anybody ever tried placing a "chain" of cities across a continent to act as a makeshift canal? I wonder if it will work? I don't see any real value in it, but maybe someone else would.

You're not allowed to build cities in adjacent tiles. Anyhoo, I don't think think it would work anyhow. The inland cities are on non-coastal tiles, so the ship wouldn't be able to move there. I think.

	30-04-2002 23:38									#28
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I think canals would be a good addition.

I think limiting them to 3 tiles long and both ends must be in a coastal tile is the way to go. They should also have an upkeep of something like 3 gold / canaled tile and definately resource requirements to discourage willy-nilly placement. I can only imagine the AIs territory if they could be built anywhere.

Bridges would also be a welcome addition.

	01-05-2002 03:30									#29
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Yeah, canals have been regularly discussed in these forums; because they are such a good idea!

It would be great if they could be implemented intothe game.

	01-05-2002 03:39									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Canals would be especially useful in Civ 3 as there are often thin strips of land that would really be useful if a canal could be built there.