03-05-2002 15:46									#121
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quote: Your viewpoint seems quite Eurocentric, which is interesting because many Europeans don't even consider Russians truly "European".

Actually, I would have to disagree. It's actually Americans that don't consider Russians truly European. Europe goes to the Ural Mountains. The vast majority of Russians live in Europe (who would want to live in Siberia, unless they were deported ) Since the times of Peter the Great, Russia has been very European, they're so doubt about it --- Russia is more European than it is anything else!

	03-05-2002 16:25									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't see China as qualifying as either contributing to world-wide culture or being world-wide in scope. While they get points for sheer longevity, China was always a fairly isolationist civilization and Chinese culture didn't spread far beyond China, certainly not beyond Asia.

Really, are you telling me that you cant walk into virtually any city on the planet and not find a chinese restaurant? Thats culture. Hows about gunpowder, pasta, porcelin? Not just that they invented them but the fact that everybody KNOWS they did. Clearly, China's cultural influence is "worldwide" in scope.

quote: As for the Mongols...How can you not consider the Germans but include the Mongols? The single greatest impact the mongols had on history was threatening Eastern Europe, and in the scope of things it was a short-lived heydey for the Mongols. They spread no culture, and their "empire" fell very quickly. They may be cool, but as a "civilization" that impacted the world, they hardly compare with the Germans.

The second inclusion criteria was an empire of "world-wide scope" The Brits and Spanish clearly have that (In addition to world wide cultural influence). The Mongols and Romans were not strictly world-wide but were IMO "close enough for goverment work" given that thay ruled almost everything they knew about in an ancient age.

The French have world-wide cultural influence.

I didnt include America despite huge cultural impact in the 20th century. The time frame is too short.

Again, you've put forward the germans as a nation that has impacted the world. I'd like to know how you define that. In terms of world-wide empire->none. In terms of world wide cultural impact, there is the protestant reformation. I cant think of any other, perhaps you can.

quote: I have to say, If I had to list the 3 countries that had the greatest impact on the 20th century, it would be the USA, Russia and Germany.

I would agree. But I wouldnt have included Germany in CIV3 based upon that. Warmongering was not an inclusion criteria in my list.

	03-05-2002 16:50									#123
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If God were going to give the world an enema....he would stick the hose in France,

	03-05-2002 17:35									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You're misreading my post. I was responding to another poster's criterea for "worthwhile" civs and then pointing out how his choices seemed to violate his own criteria.

You've mis-read my post. At no point does it say "worthwhile". It does say "world-wide" though.

	03-05-2002 22:28									#125
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Really, are you telling me that you cant walk into virtually any city on the planet and not find a chinese restaurant? Thats culture.

YEah, but ask a Chinese person how similar that stuff is to actual Chinese cuisine consumed in China. Not very. But everyday people around the world eat sausage. That's a German food (even the Italian and English varieties derived from German ones).

quote: Hows about gunpowder, pasta, porcelin? Not just that they invented them but the fact that everybody KNOWS they did. Clearly, China's cultural influence is "worldwide" in scope.

And again, I'm not against China...but some would argue (perhaps Eurocentrically) that (except porcelain) the most influential USE of those inventions was through European civs. Certainly when anyone says pasta to me, I think Italy.

quote: The second inclusion criteria was an empire of "world-wide scope" The Brits and Spanish clearly have that (In addition to world wide cultural influence). The Mongols and Romans were not strictly world-wide but were IMO "close enough for goverment work" given that thay ruled almost everything they knew about in an ancient age.

But then you say:

quote: I didnt include America despite huge cultural impact in the 20th century. The time frame is too short.

This is a blatant double standard on your part. American culture has currently lasted about as long as Mongol empire did (it was quite short-lived, remember?). And the cultural impact on the world by Americans has been far, far greater within its *slightly* shorter scope, which if anything makes American influence even more potent. Think of that going into a McDonald's in Beijing.

quote: Again, you've put forward the germans as a nation that has impacted the world. I'd like to know how you define that. In terms of world-wide empire->none.

Germany did have colonies, East Africa, Angola, etc. Also, Hitler's empire, though brief, did span from France to the vast tracts of western Russia, Scandinavia to Northern Africa.

quote: In terms of world wide cultural impact, there is the protestant reformation. I cant think of any other, perhaps you can.

Plenty, I can't believe you'd say this. Gutenburg and the printing press (while contemporary in other civs, it was his that sparked the dramatic upsurge in book printing and thus, literacy), Bach, Beethoven, Hadyn, Mozart, Schumann, Schubert...without whom, the rock music people listen to today wouldn't be the same. Goethe, whose Faust legend spawned countless imitations and similar works across the globe. And Schiller's dramas as well.

German mathematicians and inventors, scientists, biologists, philosophers...Immanuel Kant, Nietzsche, Heidigger, Einstein... It was a German who invented the automobile (Benz), arguably the most influential invention of the past 150 years. Karl Ferdinand Braun invented the cathode ray tube, without which Television wouldn't exist. WWII German missile programs were crucial to future Space exploration (ol' Werner Von Braun). Internal Combustion engine? Rudolph Diesel. Farhenheit thermometer? Heinrich Hertz, father of Radio. Doppler Radar? Bayer and Aspirin? Linde invented a process of liquefying gasses, and thus refrigeration, a monumental invention. Nicholaus Otto invented the gas motor engine. The first electric elevator was built by the German inventor Werner von Siemens in 1880. Konrad Zuse was the inventor of the first freely programmable computer. Emil Berliner - microphone and grammophone. Adolph Dassler - athletic shoe, worn in every part of the world today. Germer - flourescent lamps. And a Dresden woman invented the coffee filter, crucial to every morning of many people's lives.

Tip of the iceberg (berg...German? hmmm)

quote: I would agree. But I wouldnt have included Germany in CIV3 based upon that. Warmongering was not an inclusion criteria in my list.

Again, world-wide impact doesn't necessarily mean always positive. But it is indisputable that, for good or ill, it was German military aggression that changed the course of the world forever. Without Hitler's War, we would be living, I wager, in a dramatically different world. Warmongering is having a worldwide impact (what ELSE would you call what the Mongols did?)

	03-05-2002 22:31									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't see China as qualifying as either contributing to world-wide culture or being world-wide in scope. While they get points for sheer longevity, China was always a fairly isolationist civilization and Chinese culture didn't spread far beyond China, certainly not beyond Asia.

Ahem.

Chinese food, martial arts, silk, fireworks, philosophy, Sun Tzu, the compass, opium, just a few things that spread far.

China explored the African coast before the Portuguese, setting up lots of embassies.

P.S.: Gutenburg did NOT invent the Printing Press.

	03-05-2002 23:07									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Ahem. Chinese food, martial arts, silk, fireworks, philosophy, Sun Tzu, the compass, opium, just a few things that spread far.

Oh lord, I've irked Ribannah again. Look, for the LAST time: I'm NOT arguing against China, I whole-heartedly support China being in the game, I LOVE CHINA. I was merely pointing out how someone ELSE'S criteria seemed to be excluding them.

quote: P.S.: Gutenburg did NOT invent the Printing Press.

Gutenburg's invention was not the first, but it was the one that sparked the dramatic upsurge in European literacy and can be directly attributable to European ascendency in the arts post 16th century. While the others may have predated it, his was the one who had the most influence.

	03-05-2002 23:16									#128
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First of all, I like the playability criterion the best, and this, along with the well established PCishness is what the developers used.

Now, when it comes to defining great civilizations, I have a somewhat different criterion. To me, civilizations are defined by the structure within which the people of a group relate to each other. In other words, the rules of interaction between the people, and how they interact with other groups. In this way, I would define these groups (I am doing this on the spur of the moment, so I may chaneg my mind later):

Southern European (Rome, Greece,...)
Northen European (German, British, US,...)
Northen Far East (Mandarin China, Korea, Japan,...)
Southeast Asia (Thailand, Cantonese China,...)
North American (Iroquois, Souix,...)
Central American (Aztec, Maya,...)
South American (Inca)
North African (Egyptian)
Middle Eastern (Babalonian, Persian)
Sub-Sahara African (Zulu)

Obviously the particulars of these can be argued, but it is hard to say that the predominate members of these groups don't have a distinctly different world view from the other groups.

The trickiest one is the Chinese split. I have studied quite a bit of Chinese history, and I am of the opinion that the southern Chinese worldview is way different than that of the Mandarins.

Feel free to take potshots, I really do love to change my mind.

	03-05-2002 23:16									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I was merely pointing out how someone ELSE'S criteria seemed to be excluding them.

This was shorter so I'll start with this. They're my criteria. You may think that china has had no world-wide cultural effect but I do therefore I included them.

	03-05-2002 23:34									#130
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH This was shorter so I'll start with this. They're my criteria. You may think that china has had no world-wide cultural effect but I do therefore I included them.

I didn't say none, but I would say certainly no greater than the Germans.

	03-05-2002 23:58									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov YEah, but ask a Chinese person how similar that stuff is to actual Chinese cuisine consumed in China. Not very. But everyday people around the world eat sausage. That's a German food (even the Italian and English varieties derived from German ones).

I know that chinese food served in Birmingham Alabama is not what is served in Beijing. The point is it's "chinese food".

Now you claim the germans invented the sausage! I sincerely doubt that anyone can honestly lay claim to have invented the sausage.

quote: And again, I'm not against China...but some would argue (perhaps Eurocentrically) that (except porcelain) the most influential USE of those inventions was through European civs. Certainly when anyone says pasta to me, I think Italy.

Those are simply examples of the spread of chinese culture world-wide. You claimed that

quote: China was always a fairly isolationist civilization and Chinese culture didn't spread far beyond China, certainly not beyond Asia.

I was merely pointing to some obvious choices.

quote: This is a blatant double standard on your part. American culture has currently lasted about as long as Mongol empire did (it was quite short-lived, remember?).

A reasonable estimate for the "world-wide" effect of american culture is approx 50 years. Ghengis Khan conquered Beijing in 1215. The Yuan Dynasty was overthrown in 1368 and the remnants of the empire lasted another 100-150 years.

quote: And the cultural impact on the world by Americans has been far, far greater within its *slightly* shorter scope, which if anything makes American influence even more potent. Think of that going into a McDonald's in Beijing.

With a 50 year time span, its impossible to know whether american cultural influences will survive.

quote: Germany did have colonies, East Africa, Angola, etc. Also, Hitler's empire, though brief, did span from France to the vast tracts of western Russia, Scandinavia to Northern Africa.

Hitlers "empire" lasted 7 years. A little short dont you think? In addition, it wasnt "world-wide". Again the point was world-wide influence. There's simply no way to argue that for any world-wide German empire because there wasnt one.

quote: Plenty, I can't believe you'd say this. Gutenburg and the printing press (while contemporary in other civs, it was his that sparked the dramatic upsurge in book printing and thus, literacy), Bach, Beethoven, Hadyn, Mozart, Schumann, Schubert...without whom, the rock music people listen to today wouldn't be the same. Goethe, whose Faust legend spawned countless imitations and similar works across the globe. And Schiller's dramas as well. German mathematicians and inventors, scientists, biologists, philosophers...Immanuel Kant, Nietzsche, Heidigger, Einstein... It was a German who invented the automobile (Benz), arguably the most influential invention of the past 150 years. Karl Ferdinand Braun invented the cathode ray tube, without which Television wouldn't exist. WWII German missile programs were crucial to future Space exploration (ol' Werner Von Braun). Internal Combustion engine? Rudolph Diesel. Farhenheit thermometer? Heinrich Hertz, father of Radio. Doppler Radar? Bayer and Aspirin? Linde invented a process of liquefying gasses, and thus refrigeration, a monumental invention. Nicholaus Otto invented the gas motor engine. The first electric elevator was built by the German inventor Werner von Siemens in 1880. Konrad Zuse was the inventor of the first freely programmable computer. Emil Berliner - microphone and grammophone. Adolph Dassler - athletic shoe, worn in every part of the world today. Germer - flourescent lamps. And a Dresden woman invented the coffee filter, crucial to every morning of many people's lives.

Some wonderful inventions. One of my favorite physicists was a German (Heisenberg) . So what?

You can pick virtually any country and find scientists, inventions, artists etc. The point is that aside from a few Germa-philes nobody knows nor cares whether a German invented it. Therefore, the cultural influence for Germany is minimal.

The musicians you cited were culturally important. But I dont include Austrians as part of Germany, nor is it right to claim the cultural importance of Germany through Germans who had to go to Vienna to work. The Austro-Hungarian empire was the source of the culture you claim for the Germans.

quote: Again, world-wide impact doesn't necessarily mean always positive. But it is indisputable that, for good or ill, it was German military aggression that changed the course of the world forever. Without Hitler's War, we would be living, I wager, in a dramatically different world. Warmongering is having a worldwide impact (what ELSE would you call what the Mongols did?)

Hitler, and German aggression certainly had an effect on the world but like the american culture the time frame is too short to evaluate the true impact.

	04-05-2002 00:27									#132
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I know that chinese food served in Birmingham Alabama is not what is served in Beijing. The point is it's "chinese food".

Yeah, and just how French are "French Fries?"

quote: Now you claim the germans invented the sausage! I sincerely doubt that anyone can honestly lay claim to have invented the sausage.

Have a Bratwurst! Eat a HAMBURGer. But you say:

quote: Those are simply examples of the spread of chinese culture world-wide.

So why the double standard against the Germans? You seem willing to attribute anything remotely Chinese to Chinese culture.

quote: A reasonable estimate for the "world-wide" effect of american culture is approx 50 years. Ghengis Khan conquered Beijing in 1215. The Yuan Dynasty was overthrown in 1368 and the remnants of the empire lasted another 100-150 years. With a 50 year time span, its impossible to know whether american cultural influences will survive.

First, America's World-wide influence (I'd say) began around the turn of the century, when our fleet sailed around the globe. Don't forget our excursions to the Philippines. By 1918, we're sitting pretty high, so I'd have to say 80 minimum. Regardless, as I said before, the impact of America even within that 80 year frame has, IMO, exceeded the Mongols in scope, and we did it in a lot less time and, as far as we can see, those influences are going to have lasting impact on the world for a loooooong time.

quote: Hitlers "empire" lasted 7 years. A little short dont you think? In addition, it wasnt "world-wide". Again the point was world-wide influence. There's simply no way to argue that for any world-wide German empire because there wasnt one.

Nor was there a remotely world-wide Mongol Empire. It was big, but confined to 2 continents, Europe and Asia. Didn't even make it to Africa, whereas the Germans did.

quote: Some wonderful inventions. One of my favorite physicists was a German (Heisenberg) . So what? You can pick virtually any country and find scientists, inventions, artists etc.

So what? You're asking for worldwide impact, and I gave it to you. Show me a Mongol invention as important as the car.

quote: The point is that aside from a few Germa-philes nobody knows nor cares whether a German invented it. Therefore, the cultural influence for Germany is minimal.

Ok, now you're showing a blatant anti-German bias. You were the first to mention inventions, and now you disparage them. What does nobody caring who invented something have to do with it? Nobody cares who invented porcelain or the use of silk. Nobody really cares who invented the friggin' lightbulb, so long as we get to use it. To claim that no one is interested in German inventiveness is patently, laughably false.

quote: The musicians you cited were culturally important. But I dont include Austrians as part of Germany, nor is it right to claim the cultural importance of Germany through Germans who had to go to Vienna to work.

Every composer I mentioned, except Mozart, worked in both Austria and Germany. Bach, the granddaddy of Western classical music, didn't work in Austria. If anything, by your logic, the source of Austrian musical culture was therefore German.

But if you want to exclude the ethnic Germans from German culture, then what ethnicity do you use for China?

quote: Hitler, and German aggression certainly had an effect on the world but like the american culture the time frame is too short to evaluate the true impact.

I doubt you will find a historian alive who won't tell you that the aftershocks and effects of WWII will be felt for centuries to come, and the changes they wrought were irrevocable. That means, permament.

I think you're making some really twisted, arbitrary logic just to purposefully exclude the Germans. It certainly doesn't mesh with your pro-Mongol arguments.

	04-05-2002 00:28									#133
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As long as the Chinese cook and eat cats..they will be important to our environment. The hunger in China is real...and the peasants are poor. Let them Eat Cat.

But the Chinks are not civilized and we all know that. Heck, they drown baby girls upon birth....disgusting.

	04-05-2002 01:52									#134
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All right Danimal, you are lucky number 3 on my ignore list.

Also, though I'm not PC at all, I hope you get banned for "chinks". Not cool, at all.

	04-05-2002 02:09									#135
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quote: Now, when it comes to defining great civilizations, I have a somewhat different criterion. To me, civilizations are defined by the structure within which the people of a group relate to each other. In other words, the rules of interaction between the people, and how they interact with other groups. In this way, I would define these groups (I am doing this on the spur of the moment, so I may chaneg my mind later): Southern European (Rome, Greece,...) Northen European (German, British, US,...) Northen Far East (Mandarin China, Korea, Japan,...) Southeast Asia (Thailand, Cantonese China,...) North American (Iroquois, Souix,...) Central American (Aztec, Maya,...) South American (Inca) North African (Egyptian) Middle Eastern (Babalonian, Persian) Sub-Sahara African (Zulu)

Thats an interesting way to look at it. Do you have like a sociology background?

I don't understand how the Southern and Northern Europeans differ in the way groups relate. I thought we were all Westerners.

I'm also surprised Southeast Asia is markedly different from Northern Far East, but maybe you know a lot more than me.

Also, no India? No Muslims? Maybe the Horse Peoples like the Mongols too, though they seem much less significant than India and Muslims to me.

quote: The trickiest one is the Chinese split. I have studied quite a bit of Chinese history, and I am of the opinion that the southern Chinese worldview is way different than that of the Mandarins.

Thats an interesting point too. The "grain line" ... noodles to the north, rice to the south!

I know that there is tons of diversity within China. I also know the northern guys based on the Yellow River overwhelmed and assimilated the forest efficiency and rice peoples to the south. And whenever people were assimilated, a lot of local customs remained.

However I'm surprised that, on this scale, the Cantonese types are more different from the Mandarin types than say the Mandarins are from the Japanese. Are they really that different?

Its a cool setup, and has some thinking behind it. I guess I just don't know enough to know why some of the divisions are there.

	04-05-2002 02:48									#136
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Well, we all should know what puts a civ in our out Civ III: money! Yes, people at Firaxis want to please their customers, so they put civs most people would like to play.

That's the main reason behind Americans, Sioux (Civ II), Iroquois, Japanese and that many europeans. There are south african civs far more important than the Zulus, but they are less famous. The game is not sold in Arab countries? Then they completely ignored the importance of Muslim civs. Jeanne D'Arc never ruled the French, but she propably as famous as Napoléon (who actually ruled them for several years). And there are dozens of American wonders.

Firaxis never did care about History or reality - they just give us what the Hollywood-minded customers wanted...

	04-05-2002 02:53									#137
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quote: Thats an interesting point too. The "grain line" ... noodles to the north, rice to the south!

Its a very significant difference. Wheat is one of the big advantages the Europeans had over the East. Presumably the same for Northern China over Southern.

Rice has the advantage of allowing high populations in relatively small areas if there is enough water. Some areas allow for three crops a year.

Wheat does not need as much water. In some areas two crops can be managed by using different strains of wheat. However the big advantage of wheat is the amount of work needed for growing it is much less and mostly during short intervals. This allows for wheat based cultures to spend much larger amounts of time doing other things besides grow food. Not always really good things but still other things. The Vikings used the downtime to go raiding.

	04-05-2002 03:19									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Hab Well, we all should know what puts a civ in our out Civ III: money! Yes, people at Firaxis want to please their customers, so they put civs most people would like to play.

Uhhh... would you rather play Civs that you don't want to play? This looks like an insult, but it isn't...

quote: The game is not sold in Arab countries? Then they completely ignored the importance of Muslim civs.

So make your own.

quote: Firaxis never did care about History or reality - they just give us what the Hollywood-minded customers wanted...

So... any guesses to whose DL this is?

	04-05-2002 03:49									#139
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Why? The Roman civ started (real life here) around the early ancient age, and expired by the late ancient age. Meanwhile, the Americans got their start in the late mideival age, and are still around in the modern age. That means that the Romans were around for less than one age, and the Americans were around for more than 2 ages.

What the romans is stil here
3-4 ages just because there not a power at the moment.
A lot longer than you

	04-05-2002 04:07									#140
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quote: Its a very significant difference. Wheat is one of the big advantages the Europeans had over the East. Presumably the same for Northern China over Southern. Rice has the advantage of allowing high populations in relatively small areas if there is enough water. Some areas allow for three crops a year. Wheat does not need as much water. In some areas two crops can be managed by using different strains of wheat. However the big advantage of wheat is the amount of work needed for growing it is much less and mostly during short intervals. This allows for wheat based cultures to spend much larger amounts of time doing other things besides grow food. Not always really good things but still other things. The Vikings used the downtime to go raiding.

Cool post Ethelred. I love economic history.

The funny thing about rice is you can keep adding labor input (people) to the same amount of area and keep increasing output. With most other crops, the number of workers per area cannot keep being increased ... more workers does not lead to more output. That is the real reason rice allows such high population per area, like you mentioned.

I didn't know the other stuff in your post, very cool.

I know that will tend to make the northern wheat Chinese different from the southern rice Chinese, but I'm still surprised if they are more different than the Mandarin types are from the Japanese.

	04-05-2002 04:08									#141
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The Romans are definately a more important historical civ than the US. One must not only look at the period in history they were around, but also at their impact towards the future. The Romans have done a great deal.

	04-05-2002 04:17									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Grrr The Romans are definately a more important historical civ than the US. One must not only look at the period in history they were around, but also at their impact towards the future. The Romans have done a great deal.

I will wager that, thanks to the sheer volume of information output involved in America's era, ultimately posterity will record the USA as a more influential civilization than Rome.

America touches parts of the world Rome didn't know existed.

Hmm, that sounded kinda dirty...

	04-05-2002 04:22									#143
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So when did America invent Iron working?

	04-05-2002 04:28									#144
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When did Rome invent the airplane?

	04-05-2002 04:32									#145
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(Oh, and the Romans didn't invent Iron Working, anyway!)

	04-05-2002 04:38									#146
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quote: Originally posted by nato I know that will tend to make the northern wheat Chinese different from the southern rice Chinese, but I'm still surprised if they are more different than the Mandarin types are from the Japanese.

I don't get that one either. Japanese are pretty different to me. I don't know much about the China though. A lot in comparison to the average American but that still isn't much.

Chinese-Americans are mostly from Southern China, those that still speak Chinese speak Cantonese not Mandarin. Japanese sounds very different to me. Cantonese allways sounds like an arguement, the tonal qualities of Japanese is more subtle but since I don't understand either I am only going on how it sounds to me.

I can pronounce Japanese, thats about it.

	04-05-2002 04:43									#147
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I had a Japanese roommate and worked for a major Japanese company for a while, and now when I hear Chinese, I can instantly tell "that's not Japanese!"

Chinese does sound harsher and a bit more caustic on the ears.

	04-05-2002 04:45									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Grrr The Romans are definately a more important historical civ than the US. One must not only look at the period in history they were around, but also at their impact towards the future. The Romans have done a great deal.

Like what? Giving us the Catholic church?

	04-05-2002 04:47									#149
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You're ahead of me!

I used to be able to count to ten in Japanese, now I can make it to six I think.

Chinese I have no clue. I've always wondered if because I have ZERO musical ability if it would make learning Chinese harder.

	04-05-2002 05:13									#150
	Increase the size of your Attachments

*desperately tries to drag topic back on*

So who's more worthless...the French or the English?