30-04-2002 20:55									#1
	Are improvements worth the money? Increase Your PM Length

Ive always wondered if getting certain improvements, such as the colisseum (sp?) are worth the upkeep? Is it worth the money getting these improvements or is the money better spent being put towards research? I find that if i build too many improvements and have a large army, I can only get like 40% on science and 0% on happiness. This does not work for me because in a few turns I am really behind on techs. What do you all think?

	30-04-2002 21:26									#2
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If your citizens are unhappy then it's worth it to build a coloseum. When your city is a decent size and is producing some trade it's very important to build maketplaces and later banks. Librarys and Unis are important if you are researching techs.
The only city improvements that are not worth it is imo coastal fortresses and some few others i can't remember right now.

	30-04-2002 23:17									#3
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A good question. Obviously, every case will be different. However, I came to a startling revelation (well, to me) the other day regarding temples. Temples were always an automatic first build for me. No exceptions. Culture + Happiness are very important. Every town.

It is good to question each build. I was thinking about temples more & thought they were not as valuable as I first thought. For 1 maintenance, they keep 1 person content. I can accomplish the same thing by adding a military police (and maybe the MP is paid for, which is even better). I can also raise my luxury slider & accomplish nearly the same thing in every city (corruption & income calculations aside - nearly an approximation here). I can also try to get 1 more luxury to accomplish the same thing. Temples generate culture & expand borders, so I keep them in my "should" build list, especially with a Religious civ when I get a discount. But, they are off my "must" build list.

Temples cost 60 shields for non-religious civs. Sure, I don't get the culture, but I save the shields too. Perhaps I can build a couple horsemen instead & take that extra luxury Perhaps I'm scientific & can build a library cheaper instead & boost research.

Colosseums keep 2 content, but cost 2 in maintenance. Cathedrals are the best this way by keeping 3 content but only requiring 2 maint.

I also always double-check my science spending before making science/commercial improvements. The higher my science rate, the more valuable a science multiplier (i.e. library) becomes. The lower it is, the more valuable a gold multiplier (i.e. mrktplace) becomes. Cities need a minimum # of shields before I consider a factory. Also, I often build units if no buildings can be built within 15 turns or so. I can't stand cities not producing something most of the time.

Thinking about the improvements can be a very valuable, if time consuming, activity.

	01-05-2002 00:03									#4
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the biuldings that I do without are: SAM's in interior cities (obvious reason) and factory upgrades. I try to build hoover. I don't really even know the benefits of each factory so I usually just build manufacturing. Maybe solar. its annoying when they just replace the other, ie. nuke, coal, hydro etc.

Also, I will find myself avoiding building many research labs, they come really too late in the game for me to use them efectively, usually at that point I am at war for the rest of the game and don't want a key city's war machine to go offline at an inoportune time.

	01-05-2002 00:16									#5
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Colosseums are questionable at times, but I generally build them because at some point my cities will get big enough to need them. I play on Monarch, so keeping my citizens happy requires some work.

The best "bang for the buck" improvement I can think of is the marketplace. Extra money and happiness, all in one - free if you have Smith's. Nice.

I just about never build granaries, due to the aforementioned happiness concerns, the fact that they take a while to build when you're just starting out, and the fact that cities max out at size 12 for a long time. If I get an early leader I will often rush the Pyramids. Otherwise I either capture the Pyramids or build granaries much later, when I'm building hospitals.

-Arrian

	01-05-2002 04:04									#6
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quote: Originally posted by chiefpaco A good question. Obviously, every case will be different. However, I came to a startling revelation (well, to me) the other day regarding temples. Temples were always an automatic first build for me. No exceptions. Culture + Happiness are very important. Every town. It is good to question each build. I was thinking about temples more & thought they were not as valuable as I first thought. For 1 maintenance, they keep 1 person content. I can accomplish the same thing by adding a military police (and maybe the MP is paid for, which is even better). I can also raise my luxury slider & accomplish nearly the same thing in every city (corruption & income calculations aside - nearly an approximation here). I can also try to get 1 more luxury to accomplish the same thing. Temples generate culture & expand borders, so I keep them in my "should" build list, especially with a Religious civ when I get a discount. But, they are off my "must" build list. Temples cost 60 shields for non-religious civs. Sure, I don't get the culture, but I save the shields too. Perhaps I can build a couple horsemen instead & take that extra luxury Perhaps I'm scientific & can build a library cheaper instead & boost research. Colosseums keep 2 content, but cost 2 in maintenance. Cathedrals are the best this way by keeping 3 content but only requiring 2 maint.

Temples, however, are required if you want to build cathedrals.

	01-05-2002 04:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I don't really even know the benefits of each factory so I usually just build manufacturing. Maybe solar. its annoying when they just replace the other, ie. nuke, coal, hydro etc.

You need to have an actual factory in order to enjoy the benefits of plants (solar, hydro, etc.) - just build ing a manufacturing plant isn't enough - plants merely increase the efficiency of a factory, the factory increases production.

If you want to be able to have a factory and all the plants at once you need to go into civedit - there's a "replace all improvements with this flag checked" flag - you need to uncheck this box for all of them.

	01-05-2002 04:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 You need to have an actual factory in order to enjoy the benefits of plants (solar, hydro, etc.) - just build ing a manufacturing plant isn't enough - plants merely increase the efficiency of a factory, the factory increases production.

do the upgrades do anything other than decrease pollution?

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 If you want to be able to have a factory and all the plants at once you need to go into civedit - there's a "replace all improvements with this flag checked" flag - you need to uncheck this box for all of them.

Yeah, I would like to see the production of that city.

	01-05-2002 09:17									#9
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Most are, but some are a waste of time. Like the AI building graneries when the have the pyramids.

	01-05-2002 13:40									#10
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The following are the only ones that I really find to be a waste...

Colosseum: For 2 Gold, 2 unhappy citizens are content. Doesn't compare with the cathedral which costs 2 gold as well, but makes 3 unhappy citizens content (6 if you have Sistine). I'll only build a colosseum when the city is getting large and even the cathedral, Sistine Chapel, temple and Military Police aren't enough to keep the city in WLTK mode

Coastal Fortress: Bombards enemy ships when they are one square away. I never see enemy ships getting anywhere near my city, even if it doesn't have it.

SAM battery: Comes too late to be of much use. Fighters with Air Superiority work better for air defence.

Coal Plant: I'd rather wait until I get Hoover Dam. Pollution skyrockets with a coal plant, and more than enough comes out of factories and populations past 12 as it is.

Solar Plant: Since I'll usually have the Hoover Dam, this one, which has the same effect as the Hydro Plant is quite useless.

Walls: If you deploy your military right, you won't need these. Besides, they'll stop being of any use once the city is size 7.

	01-05-2002 16:52									#11
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Uhm... I will sometimes build happiness improvements even if I don't really need them yet, like Colosseums and Cathedrals in smaller cities. While this isn't efficient from a budget point of view, this makes me have higher culture, and I always have the highest culture of all the civs, even if I'm backwards otherwise.

	01-05-2002 18:53									#12
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I have never built coliseums. I usually rely on a temple/cathedral combo and make sure I build the Sistine Chapel and JS Bach's cathedral. That seems to keep happiness at good levels for me.

As for cost and expense...I find the trading company an invaluable asset, as it reduces costs tremendously, particularly if you have a sprawling empire with tons of cities. I find that I rarely if ever build research labs, as they come at a point in the game where Im almost done with research and I already getting new techs every 4 turns.

Don't build coastal fortresses much, nor do I build Airports in any but my largest, most productive cities.

	01-05-2002 19:08									#13
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Boris, if you built Colloseums, it would still mean more culture.

I hated the 4 turn cap so I reversed that one... so I built the Research Labs (and again, it's culture). What I would like, though, is playing more in the Modern Age, but currently it's not yet quite resolved.

	01-05-2002 19:10									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Boris, if you built Colloseums, it would still mean more culture. I hated the 4 turn cap so I reversed that one... so I built the Research Labs (and again, it's culture). What I would like, though, is playing more in the Modern Age, but currently it's not yet quite resolved.

Yeah, but usually byt that point my Culture is already 2X anyone elses. And yes yes yes to a better modern age. End game is tedious.

	01-05-2002 19:41									#15
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Since I started warmongering, I've actually tried NOT to build too much culture, in order to avoid blasting to 100K too quickly. It seems counter-intuative that a warmongering civ would be more cultured than a peaceful builder civ, but the fact is that 20 temples = 40 culture per turn, and 10 temples = 20 per turn. The more cities you have, the more culture you will build up. Thus, I often build markets before cathedrals and libraries and avoid colosseums as long as I can.

Things I never build - coastal forts/sam batteries/coal plants
Things I rarely build - granaries/walls

Walls can be useful at times, and when I'm playing a militaristic civ, they're 10 shields to build. I've built them in strategic locations and been thankful on occasion (built in a town on a hill, defended by elite samurai... nothin' getting throught that!).

I build factories wherever they may be even remotely useful because, coupled with Hoover, a corrupt city in wltkd with a courthouse and a police station can actually produce things. Even if I don't need another productive city, I'll do it. I have a thing with squeezing the most out of my cities. I dislike 1 shield/1commerce cities, and I do all I can to have only a few, even in games where I'm a couple of tiles from domination. The 1.21 patch has made this easier, btw.

-Arrian

	01-05-2002 20:47									#16
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quote: Yeah, but usually byt that point my Culture is already 2X anyone elses. And yes yes yes to a better modern age. End game is tedious.

Exactly... I want my culture to be three times of the others.

Modern Age... who knows... it's so fun, but I've only had a real modern Age once.

	01-05-2002 21:03									#17
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I like to wage a lot of wars...therefore I like to keep my armies happy. I build Massage Parlors and Topless Bars as soon as I can. Who needs Temples and libraries...when you got nude women.

	01-05-2002 21:11									#18
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Yeah that's right .

	02-05-2002 05:55									#19
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quote: Originally posted by danimal I like to wage a lot of wars...therefore I like to keep my armies happy. I build Massage Parlors and Topless Bars as soon as I can. Who needs Temples and libraries...when you got nude women.

Right.

	02-05-2002 20:17									#20
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I consider myself a "warbuilder."

To support continuous war, I need to build just about everything, at least through the Industrial Age. Anything that helps with military, happiness, money, techs.

Otherwise, I usually don;t build granaries, although I will go for the Great Pyramids. Walls for small cities on the battle front. Coastal fortresses for key exposed cities, but rarely.

I still haven;t played that much in the Modern Era, so no comment.